The Panopticon Wonder Discussion Thread

Do you like the idea of the Panopticon being in VP?

  • It's a great idea

    Votes: 20 25.3%
  • It's fine

    Votes: 9 11.4%
  • I don't care

    Votes: 9 11.4%
  • I don't like it; I think the CV wonder should be something else

    Votes: 29 36.7%
  • I don't like it; I think CV shouldn't even have a wonder

    Votes: 12 15.2%

  • Total voters
    79
I agree that politicians labeling themselves "conservative" or "liberal" is not really helpful, especially since the changes in policies they pursued over time do not match the changes in their labels; this is how one gets a situation where Angela Merkel, who calls herself conservative, is pursuing policies like mass immigration, which is clearly not a right wing position, and in fact more than 75% of the German population is in favor of immediately stopping mass immigration and has been for more than a year, so the great majority of the population is actually a lot more right wing than the supposed "center-right" party of A. Merkel, which reflects how Merkel is really much more left of the center than she pretends to be; this is not just about immigration, either, Merkel also instituted gay marriage, eroded Germany's sovereignty economically and militarily now as well and so on.

My original point was that I don't want "border dissolution" as the Freedom (a.k.a. Western) specific CV wonder. The reasoning I put forward was supposed to highlight that such a position has nothing to do with Western philosophical foundations but is simply a political sentiment, which can be found in other cultures as well (i.e. it is not even specific to the West). I elaborated that such sentiment is the result of personality characteristics that can actually be measured with great validity (especially Big 5 Personality Scale) and is replicable across cultures as well. When I was talking about conservatives and liberals I did not intend to make statements specific to the US only but specific to human nature; the reason why I used those terms instead of "right wing"/"left wing", for example, is because the US has a rather large and very accessible (for scientists) population and a rather nice bipartisan split, which makes it easy to study. When measuring Big 5 Personality Scale metrics one can actually predict with some reliability which party the person will vote for, though there are, of course, other factors at play as well. So you can just substitute "right wing"/"left wing" if you like since regarding the science I'm talking about they are what people will (usually) mean in the US when they talk about conservatives or liberals.
The fact that there is such a strong psychological and, since personality is partially biologically determined, biological basis for political opinion means that there is a certain bounding effect in the political landscape that does not change significantly over time spans of centuries (because evolution doesn't act that quickly and potential selective pressures are somewhat broad in this context); this means that there is a self-correcting mechanism at work, that can be observed right now with Trump's election and the rise of the New Right in Europe; part of this can be explained by the action of the Behavioral Immune System which is active more strongly in people who lean more to the right (they are also more sensitive to disgust) and partly by the violation of so many borders in the current time (e.g. the border around sexuality, around gender, around religion, around culture, around nations and so on) which evokes a visceral reaction in many people who are already predisposed to be more sensitive to the violation of borders.
This is why your statement that ideologies are a product of culture is only partly true; they are, in my opinion, first and foremost parasites on the religious substructure of our society, given power by the moral vacuum in the 19th century after the "death of God" as proclaimed by Nietzsche in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" and defined by the personalities of the people at the extreme ends of their respective distributions (largely Conscientiousness and Openness to Experience) and only secondarily are they influenced by culture. You can see that in the differences between national socialism and marxism: the first is predicated on the idea that there are extremely important, distinctly defined categories concerning people (nation, race, but also the individual...this is like drawing borders around these things psychologically) while the latter is predicated on the idea that those categories do not exist (no borders) and every human being is equal so that any difference in life outcome must be due to oppression (with some chance sprinkled in). Culture then defines the more detailed parameters, like who the oppressor and the oppressed is, for example.

I hope I explained a bit more clearly why I'm not talking about political definitions here but about biological and psychological differences between people, which are present across cultures and are therefore clearly not part of any specific culture. The "border dissolution" idea is clearly not some idea foundational or even specific to the West but instead the product of people who are at the extreme ends of the personality distributions.
Spoiler Psychology of ideologies :

While I agree that there's a factor on psychologies, I disagree with the biological determinism you seem to believe in.

First, even when the psychology of a person influences which ideologies or political policies they may choose, it's the country culture which determines what are the options, based on historical reasons, current circumstances and probably the climate. It comes to me a scene of the Spielberg's movie 'Lincoln':
"George Yeaman: And…and! We will be forced to enfranchise the men of the colored race, it would be inhuman not to! Who among us is prepared to give Negroes the vote?
[everyone on the floor starts talking loudly]
George Yeaman: And…and! What shall follow upon that? Universal enfranchisement? Votes for women?
[everyone on the floor stands in anger to make their disagreement heard]"
So, even when some of those people would vote for Universal enfranchisement or votes for women, had they been born a few decades later, that was not the right time. The culture at the time was ready for slavery abolishment but not for universal enfranchisement. This is important to consider when we look at eastern cultures.
Second, psychology is not biologically determined. Culture also has a say. Think on cultures that value success and effort over any other thing. This puts a pressure on every person of this culture, increasing stress and anxiety, which in turn, affects people psychology. It causes people to suicide on countries like Japan.
Third, other external factors, like climate, also affect psychology. It's a known fact that the lack of sun causes unhappiness, and might be a cause for suicidals too.

I agree that we are immersed on a reactionary wave. It seems to be the pendulum law. But I have another theory about why this happens. Let's talk about what kind of foreign policies people may agree with. Some would prefer a country of only one race, banning all foreigners. Some wouldn't mind a few foreigners in the country, as long as they don't mix with the locals. Some wouldn't mind a few foreigners living in the country as long as they adapt to local culture. Some wouldn't mind a few foreigners living in the country and bringing their culture with them so we sycretize both cultures (hopefully with the best of each world). Some don't mind that the foreigners are of different races and culture, but dislike more people in the country, fearing for their jobs.
Some people raise and die thinking the same. Some other change their ideas with the age and the events (maybe a few thousands of foreigners come to live to your city and you discover that you actually dislike other cultures, even if you thought differently when younger. Or you could fall in love with another culture if you happen to visit another country.)
All those grades are like forces pushing politics in one or other direction. Most people are unhappy with current foreign policies: some want them to be harder, some want them softer, a very minority likes it, but if the current policy is approximately in the middle, then it kinds of balances. When a political party rules in minority and gets to pass laws without consent of the social majority (in virtue of the electoral system), the situation is imbalanced. You can be sure that the next term, the next party will reverse foreign policies.
This explains political waves in the short term.

Changes in the long term might be attributed to the external forces I mentioned for changes on people's psychology. War in Syria, with millions of refugees, has changed how many people think about foreigners in Europe. So, xenophobic and near fascist parties are raising. It's not the only reason, but one of the strongest, in my opinion.

 
Psychology of ideologies
Spoiler :

I think we actually agree more than is apparent; the problem is that there is a limit to how much time I'm willing to invest in these posts as this is OT and also just a game mod forum so it doesn't feel super productive to me and so I can't elaborate on every point as much as I'd like.

First, I don't believe in biological determinism in the sense that biology determines 100% of the observed behavior, but I am of the opinion that its effect is greatly underplayed these days. To go back to the national socialist vs. marxist idea: Marxists believe that biology determines nothing, while national socialists greatly exaggerate its actual influence and especially the genetic homogeneity of breeding populations; in fact, the main reasons why the race theory is incorrect is that 1) it is impossible to clearly and absolutely define a race 2) the genetic heterogeneity in a breeding population is very large (in fact, even the genetic heterogeneity of a single human specimen can accumulate with age to encompass even a little more than 1% of his/her genome) 3) the geographical allele distributions don't match up with each other; that being said, there clearly are genetic differences between the normal distributions of important properties between breeding populations as well as between personality types (this is one of the cool things twin studies can be used for). So while both the Marxists and the Nazis get it wrong, the effect biology has on our behavior should not be underestimated.
Now, of course it is important to remember that 1) we are talking about normally distributed behavioral metrics here and not about binary variables 2) the correlations don't have to be causal 3) they are not extremely strong, but they do matter (r=0.4 - 0.6 for most things I talked about). This means that we are talking about an underlying framework providing the individual with guidance but not dictating anything. Furthermore, the innate preferences are very basal, they do not allow complex intellectual differentiation, which I alluded to when I said that biology determines preference with respect to borders (this is a metaphor, of course) or no borders, intellectual interaction will provide the ideological framework (e.g. "all humans are equal") and culture will fill in the blanks (e.g. "oppressors = white males ; oppressed = muslims, minorities, women"). So I'm a bit surprised that you say "First, even when the psychology of a person influences which ideologies or political policies they may choose, it's the country culture which determines what are the options, based on historical reasons, current circumstances and probably the climate." since that is very much in congruence with what I wrote toward the end of my last post (except for the climate bit, see below). Also, there is actually not that much distance between where we are now and the past; for example, there are now more arguments and evidence than ever why giving women the vote is not the best idea but we can't talk about that because women have >50% of the vote due to their higher life expectancy (although I don't wanna get into this as well now since I don't wanna start a gender war here and am not advocating for this anyway...IMO there needs to be a very serious and thorough discussion of the nature and characteristics of the sexes and us humans in general and what adaptations are needed to keep society stable and free for everyone, but of course this is currently impossible with all the Political Correctness BS shutting down these kinds of discussions).
So we are of course influenced by much more than just biology when it comes down to the actual formulated political opinion. In fact, even the general trend will change over time in a person's life: there is a shift of political preferences to the right-wing with increasing age that is well documented, which is likely at least partially mediated through life experience; I myself used to be left of the center but evolved my opinion as I learned new things and got older. But that doesn't mean that there is an ever progressing cultural evolution taking place that refines and perfects our political views; it is one of the fallacies of the left to believe that their point of view is the natural and correct next step, when in fact it has actually strayed quite far from the center by now and so increasingly mass surveillance / influence and propaganda has to be employed to appease the "dinosaurs" (i.e. people) whose biology simply doesn't change that fast (and wouldn't anyway, but that's another discussion).

I will now comment on some factual mistakes:
Second, psychology is not biologically determined.
That is incorrect. There are conclusive twin studies showing that about 40% of the variance in psychometric evaluation is due to genetics (=biology).

Think on cultures that value success and effort over any other thing. This puts a pressure on every person of this culture, increasing stress and anxiety, which in turn, affects people psychology. It causes people to suicide on countries like Japan.
This is partially incorrect; East Asians in general have this culture, not just Japanese people. East Asians are also exceptionally good at mathematical ability and have an IQ that is slightly higher than that of Caucasians (on average, of course) so the competition in the hard sciences is quite tremendous in those countries, which influenced the culture and leads to stress and anxiety. Caucasians are more evenly distributed in their intellectual abilities, which relieves competitive pressure from individual fields of expertise.

Third, other external factors, like climate, also affect psychology. It's a known fact that the lack of sun causes unhappiness, and might be a cause for suicidals too.
That is incorrect. You are talking about seasonal depression, which is more prevalent in northern countries but does not "cause unhappiness", depressed mood is simply a symptom of the individuals suffering from depression, which in turn can be caused by the climate. The higher prevalence does not take on epidemic sizes, though (i.e. it doesn't happen that half of Island gets depressed in the winter) and in fact Scandinavian countries are some of the happiest countries on the planet. Incidentally, part of the reason for the high happiness may be the high levels of gender equality in those countries, which have actually caused the gender differences to maximize, not minimize as most psychologists thought, which is another example of the importance of biology: culture in the 21st century causes gender differences to minimize where it constricts gender equality and biology maximizes the differences when the constraint is lifted.

You can be sure that the next term, the next party will reverse foreign policies.
That is somewhat incorrect. Look at the recent (Sept. 2017) federal elections in Germany and the resulting coalition. Mass immigration continues unhalted despite the population being against it. The reasons for this are many but partly it's because of the propaganda of the (thoroughly leftist...Germans don't have a "Fox News" channel) main stream media telling people that they are Nazis if they vote AfD and some of the other parties hinting at wanting to stop mass immigration to trick voters (it is a trick because in the coalition contract they signed, it says that mass immigration will continue and now they actually actively import African immigrants additionally as well). Of course the political landscape will change as a result but these things are not that dynamic because people are indoctrinated and lied to too much. It is still a testament to biological bounding that the AfD, a party founded in 2013 (before the refugee crisis) immediately gained almost 5% of the vote in 2013 (just to showcase that this is, in fact, not just about immigration) and now has almost trippled that result in 4 years (almost 13% in 2017) and continues to rise in popularity (now at 15% in 2018). I would also respectfully ask you not to call legitimate, democratic parties xenophobic and "near fascist" just because you are left of the center and they are not...I don't wanna have to engage in another shouting match here.
 
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This discussion is only a proof that noone actually knows how in RL a cultural victory could look like.

I can see what you are saying, I must admit I live near ground zero of the Marvel/Disney/StarWars universe (yes I live in SoCal and I use to work right across the street from Disney WB and Universal) and in RL I would say the CA culture is going for CV and believe me sometimes we have pretty warped view of the world.
 
Spoiler answer to [USER=305287]@civplayer33[/USER] :

I think we actually agree more than is apparent
Yes. We don't agree on our political elections, but that's perfectly legit in a democracy. To avoid any shouting, I try not to impose my preferences on anyone, and I'll avoid talking about them.

I don't believe in biological determinism in the sense that biology determines 100% of the observed behavior, but I am of the opinion that its effect is greatly underplayed these days.
I got it wrong, then.

Second, psychology is not biologically determined.
That is incorrect. There are conclusive twin studies showing that about 40% of the variance in psychometric evaluation is due to genetics (=biology).
I'm not saying that biology doesn't influence psychology. You yourself are saying that 40% of the variance to psychometric evaluation is due to genetics, thus, not 100% determined by biology.

You are talking about seasonal depression, which is more prevalent in northern countries but does not "cause unhappiness
Ok, moods are not related to happiness... But let's be real, if you are depressed or stressed more often than not, your emotional, psychological and political responses are different.

I would also respectfully ask you not to call legitimate, democratic parties xenophobic and "near fascist" just because you are left of the center and they are not...
Mmm, you are right. In a sense. In the past decade I've seen how xenophobic memes are distributed shameless, while it was not politically correct before. Messages distributed in social media that depict foreigners, specially from poor countries, as horsehocky. I know first hand that many people that enjoy such messages are now voting to new raised parties that promise a harder hand against foreigners, even when these parties are not openly xenophobic. Some of their electors only want tighter borders and are not xenophobics, but this parties know many of their electors are. It is unfair to accuse them all of xenophobia.

About 'near fascism', it's actually happening. Fascism is an extreme form of nationalism, an exaltation of homeland and race, in a totalitarian State. What we have now are Nationalist parties that are partially abandoning democratic values. See what happened in Catalonia. On the independentist side we have two peripheral nationalist parties that joined forces in an independentist agenda (I'll skip their reasons for now). The electoral system put them in the local government, and they tried to roll a referendum of independence. Even if there's some legitimacy to it, it wasn't legal and it was violently repressed by the central government (you probably saw the images). Later, they tried to enact an independent Catalonia without people's majority and without any support from current laws, though technically they didn't and it was more a symbolic act than anything. For some people they are now living in the symbolic Republic of Catalonia. On the centralist side we have another two nationalist parties in the central government (they don't call themselves nationalists, but they fit the definition), that, in order to repress the independentists, initiated court proceedings. Worth saying that in Spain, judicial max authorities are designed by political parties in the Upper chamber and by the Government, so they are not really independent (judges careers depend on how nicely they judge party members). So it suprises nobody that the State's General Attorney raised an accusation of rebellion to the independentists (a crime that requires the use of military force), and that it was accepted by the Supreme Court. Many people here still don't understand why in Belgium, Finland, Germany and England are not sending us back the runaway politicians. Figures, judges in those countries are not accepting the accusation of rebellion, even if they are no friends of independentism. Meanwhile, nine catalonian polititians are in pre-trial detention for six months now in Madrid (600 Km from Barcelona), risking 35 years of prison, and their supporters are trying to wear yellow laces in sport events asking for their freedom. Last week, police forced attendants to a soccer match to undress their yellow shirts, to prevent quarrels.
Nationalist parties abandoning democratic ways, advancing totalitarism. This is not fascism, yet.

Maybe in your country it's different, and everything is very democratic and there is no proto-fascism in your country.
 
I think everything on the topic has actually been said already; some (including me) think that CV doesn't really exist in the real world (but will remain in the game nonetheless, of course). Others disagree and that is why you created the polls.
And in case @Gazebo wants to implement the ideology-specific finishing wonders we now have those polls to display the preferences of (some) of the players. Should @Gazebo not want to do that I think it has been shown here that there is sufficient opposition to the Panopticon as the universal CV wonder that he would consider changing it.

:hide:
Spoiler :

But let's be real, if you are depressed or stressed more often than not, your emotional, psychological and political responses are different.
Well my point was that depression is a sickness that needs to be treated so it's not appropriate to claim that climate is what partly determines political views same as you surely wouldn't claim that brain tumors determine political views; it can be technically true in some cases but not systemic to the formation of political opinion in a society, especially since it only affects a small minority. It's kinda like saying land mines influence height because people who get their legs blown off are shorter...technically true but only for a small portion of the population and not systemic to biological growth.

xenophobia and 'near fascism'
I agree that xenophobic comments on social media may have increased in prevalence but this is hardly proof of anything. You don't know who makes the majority of these comments since many are anonymous and in fact it has been proven that at least some have been made by lefties trying to smear certain points of view as having a racist following (in fact, even some swasticas are made by lefties and other non-right-wingers as has been proven in several cases in the US and also in Germany...one time it was even a muslim refugee who drew a large swastica with his own blood on a wall for some demented reason). Add to that a certain juvenile, misguided sense of rebellion among those who feel they are being marginalized and discriminated against (not in the feminist sense but as a consequence of the actual, real world anti-white racism and anti-male sexism in the West today) and you get stupid comments that are meant to inflame and are basically a cry for attention. Not trying to justify those acts but it's hardly proof of some neo-fascist uprising taking place.
Edit (thing I meant to add but forgot): Germany spends many millions of € every year on the "fight against the right", which allows tens of thousands of left-wing "activists" to subsist on state-sponsored "activism". These people depend on the public perception of a great right-wing extreme, neo-fascist threat since it legitimizes their employment, so it is not surprising that there are so many left wing trolls posting racist slurs and the like anonymously, at least in Germany.

I can't speak to Spanish politics because I don't really know anything about it; my interest in European politics is limited to France, UK and the German speaking countries mostly; pretty much the only thing I heard about Puidgemont's attempted "rebellion" or whatever you wanna call it is that it was unconstitutional and that the reason Germany won't extradite him is that German law doesn't have a criminal act that fits the Spanish "rebellion" corpus delicti, which means he cannot be extradited since German law requires the pertinent offense to be criminal under German law, among other things. I also don't really understand who you are accusing of 'near-fascism' there but I can tell you that the German AfD is certainly not a near-fascist party; one of their core tenets, for example, is the institution of direct democracy (i.e. required federal plebiscites on important issues), which would introduce more democratic elements into the political process instead of eroding democracy.
There is an erosion of democracy going on in many European countries, but often, at least in France, UK and Germany, this is done by the established, so-called conservative parties who all follow leftist principles and declare right-wing positions to be hate speech; since they also continue to allow and even support mass-immigration I certainly wouldn't call them nationalist. Some of the New Right parties could be called nationalist to some degree, like the Front National, but that certainly doesn't make them fascist and given that they provide the people with an alternative to the undemocratic insistence of the established parties on radical leftist policies I think they are rather a boon to democracy by allowing a balancing to take place and giving a voice to those whose grievances are ignored and even declared hate speech. This is important because, as history shows, if you suppress the opinion of large parts of your population there will eventually be violence and possible civil war, which no one wants or should risk.
One last note on this: I think the reason why people are more prone to recognize pathology on the right than the left is (apart from all the propaganda) that right wing pathology is much more visceral; I talked a little about the origin of that in a previous post and it is much easier for people to understand why insistence on race and racial superiority is pathological; what many don't understand is that the radical left's insistence on all humans being equal in potential is just as pathological because both views are not reflected by the biological reality and will inevitably lead to genocide. The left saying that all people are equal leads to the intellectual concept of oppression (something has to cause the inequality, after all), which leads to the stigmatization of one group as the perpetrators (like the Kulaks in the former Soviet Union, for example, who were declared oppressors and then murdered, raped and shipped off to labor camps) in a similar way as the stigmatization of Jews was carried out in Nazi Germany; the more intellectual nature of this process makes it a bit more obscure to recognize but it is just as evil.
 
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Spoiler civplayer33 :

it was unconstitutional and that the reason Germany won't extradite him is that German law doesn't have a criminal act that fits the Spanish "rebellion" corpus delicti, which means he cannot be extradited since German law requires the pertinent offense to be criminal under German law, among other things
There is a simmilar crime to rebellion in Germany, High Treason or something like that, that requires the criminal to use military force as well, as I've read. The sentence basically says that violence was not used, so it does not fit with the equivalent crime in Germany. Mind that Belgium was to dictate sentence on the same issue, but the extradition order was withdrawn one day before. Here they thought that German judges would be more 'understanding', they weren't. But I understand that this does not interest too much outside our borders, as long as Catalonia does not gain independence.

I also don't really understand who you are accusing of 'near-fascism' there
All parties, actually. The independentists were ignoring central laws and tried to pass a unilateral independence without any warranty that it was supported by a majority of the local population, thus lacking the democratic legitimacy that allows to ignore laws. The centralists refused and forbid a referendum that was asked peacefully by more than 3 million people (in a country of 46 million people, but Catalonia is 7 million people), were making laws ad-hoc (local government is intervened thanks to a law that didn't exist before, with the agreement of the upper chamber) and using their judicial pawns to prosecute the independentists with false crimes, their leaders in prison or runaways, as it's showing up (international judges don't see rebellion crime). Currently, those imprisoned independentists are deprived of their enfranchisement without final judgement, which is totally illegal and inconstitutional and certainly not democratic. It's too long to explain here.
I don't support centralism or independentism, and watching how events develop I worry for democracy here. Maybe Germany is spared. Turkey looks like it wasn't.

 
Spoiler I was trying to get out of this, but this is a little interesting :


I agree that xenophobic comments on social media may have increased in prevalence but this is hardly proof of anything. You don't know who makes the majority of these comments since many are anonymous and in fact it has been proven that at least some have been made by lefties trying to smear certain points of view as having a racist following (in fact, even some swasticas are made by lefties and other non-right-wingers as has been proven in several cases in the US and also in Germany...one time it was even a muslim refugee who drew a large swastica with his own blood on a wall for some demented reason). Add to that a certain juvenile, misguided sense of rebellion among those who feel they are being marginalized and discriminated against (not in the feminist sense but as a consequence of the actual, real world anti-white racism and anti-male sexism in the West today) and you get stupid comments that are meant to inflame and are basically a cry for attention. Not trying to justify those acts but it's hardly proof of some neo-fascist uprising taking place.
Edit (thing I meant to add but forgot): Germany spends many millions of € every year on the "fight against the right", which allows tens of thousands of left-wing "activists" to subsist on state-sponsored "activism". These people depend on the public perception of a great right-wing extreme, neo-fascist threat since it legitimizes their employment, so it is not surprising that there are so many left wing trolls posting racist slurs and the like anonymously, at least in Germany.

Xenophobic comments, fake accounts, fake accusations is what we call "black propaganda". I don't think you can say "all xenophobic comments are from left-wing guys trying to smear right-wing point of view", or you can say "all xenophobic comments are from neo-facist right-wingers running in (insert party name here)". It's true, xenophobic comments are really unverifiable because we can have black propaganda from either side, left or right. But we can't deny the existence or black propaganda from both sides or trying to say one of the other represents the majority of black propaganda.

It's very sad for me to see how both of you keep speaking about left-wing, right-wing parties, because in my country the center-left parties (aka. Reformism, social democracy, progressives) are considered ultra-left parties from a lot of people... I live in Colombia btw. My country have two main politicians running a presidential campaign right now. And both politicians accuse each other (wrongly) or "ultra-right", "ultra-left".


There is an erosion of democracy going on in many European countries, but often, at least in France, UK and Germany, this is done by the established, so-called conservative parties who all follow leftist principles and declare right-wing positions to be hate speech; since they also continue to allow and even support mass-immigration I certainly wouldn't call them nationalist. Some of the New Right parties could be called nationalist to some degree, like the Front National, but that certainly doesn't make them fascist and given that they provide the people with an alternative to the undemocratic insistence of the established parties on radical leftist policies I think they are rather a boon to democracy by allowing a balancing to take place and giving a voice to those whose grievances are ignored and even declared hate speech. This is important because, as history shows, if you suppress the opinion of large parts of your population there will eventually be violence and possible civil war, which no one wants or should risk.

I get your point, speaking about mass-inmigration doesn't mean you're anti-islamism or whatever BS, you're right. I have the inmigration problem in my own country, and here the discussion is a economic one. But i don't feel the problem lies in the mass-inmigration support policy, it's only labeling the one against mass-inmigration as "anti-islamism".

From my point of view , if certain European governments are supporting war in certain parts of the middle east, generating inmigration. It's a moral obligation to support inmigrants in those specific countries (France, United Kingdom... i don't know about Germany). Politicians are the one supporting war policies, i get it, but since politicians represent the country, the country participating in the war is in the obligation to help the victims of the conflict. About the other European countries (no actively participating in the middle east). If you have the economy to support the inmigration, you should do it (for humanitarian reasons), but it's not your obligation.

One last note on this: I think the reason why people are more prone to recognize pathology on the right than the left is (apart from all the propaganda) that right wing pathology is much more visceral; I talked a little about the origin of that in a previous post and it is much easier for people to understand why insistence on race and racial superiority is pathological; what many don't understand is that the radical left's insistence on all humans being equal in potential is just as pathological because both views are not reflected by the biological reality and will inevitably lead to genocide. The left saying that all people are equal leads to the intellectual concept of oppression (something has to cause the inequality, after all), which leads to the stigmatization of one group as the perpetrators (like the Kulaks in the former Soviet Union, for example, who were declared oppressors and then murdered, raped and shipped off to labor camps) in a similar way as the stigmatization of Jews was carried out in Nazi Germany; the more intellectual nature of this process makes it a bit more obscure to recognize but it is just as evil.

About the biological difference in people, we can debate about that, but it's not evil to say "all people are equal". It's very clear big economical differences between classes is the thing generating social inequality, since the ones in the top are always going to win more because the ones in the low middle labels. It's not about stigmatizating one group and killing it, it's about ending some rights (or every right, if you're a marxist) from the ones in the top. For example, in my own country, we have a big problem in the rural area, some guys have a very huge ammount of unfertil land (they got those lands occupying them illegally or annexing those lands with legal tricks using ultra right private corporate armies, we call that "Paramilitarismo" in Colombia), we want to moderate the ammount of land they can have, by putting a big tax when you have more than a certain number of parcels (just like united states). We have a lot of social problems because of that. A lot of unfertil land, big inmigration from the rural to the city, no industrialized agriculture.... Conflict between classes is the thing generating social differences here. You can try to say "we can have economical differences as long as people have the same opportunities", but that's really wrong, history shows that some of the ones in the upper class are always going to end abussing privileges, denying the opportunities to the ones in the low-middle classes, and that's why we have international companies in third-world countries exploting natural resources with the help of local governments.


 
Spoiler I have a growing fear that I will die as an old man, still arguing about politics in a game mod forum :

I don't support centralism or independentism, and watching how events develop I worry for democracy here. Maybe Germany is spared. Turkey looks like it wasn't.
Yeah well the Spanish issue certainly sounds fishy; like I said I don't really know Spanish politics and Turkey is a whole separate issue in my opinion. The threat to democracy in German speaking countries and also in UK and France does not come from the right, though, it comes from the ones eroding democracy right now (i.e. the ones in power who are certainly not the New Right, since those new parties are all in the opposition).

It's a moral obligation to support inmigrants in those specific countries
That's not what's happening at all, though. I get your point about the countries actually throwing bombs in Syria but the two EU countries most affected by immigration as a result of the refugee crisis are Germany (in absolute numbers) and Sweden (in relative numbers); both countries have not engaged directly in offensive operations in Syria. Germany, for example, has only conducted satellite and air reconnaissance as well as intelligence gathering by other means and some in-air-refueling support for the Coalition so there is no moral obligation and certainly no legal obligation to let anyone in.
Besides, these people aren't really refugees anyway since they clearly didn't "flee" from Greece, Italy or Austria to Germany as those are all safe countries; they migrated to Germany because they get crazy amounts of money for simply being here and getting their asylum claim processed (it's actually about 1% of Germany's GDP that is being directly paid, or rather transferred from tax paying citizens, to these migrants now...absolutely insane amounts of money; there was a report a few weeks ago from a more extreme case of an Arab who came here with his 4 wives and 20 children and now gets more than 10.000 € per month plus a huge house for free while there are pensioners in the country who have worked their entire lives, paying into the system, and now need to go to soup kitchens because they can't afford to buy enough food). I think you can imagine why more and more people are starting to get really angry about this, especially since the influx still isn't being curbed.

About the biological difference in people, we can debate about that, but it's not evil to say "all people are equal".
Yes. It. Is. Jeez I can't believe I still have to argue this. The only thing people are equal in is their dignity and they should be treated as such. Other than that we are all completely different! Some are taller, some stronger, some smarter, some more beautiful and so on and all of it has consequences! And don't tell me culture makes people smarter, stronger, taller or more beautiful because that is obviously BS; it is our biological differences that do that (provided you are not starved or suffer from malnutrition) as not even differences in educational quality can significantly impact IQ, for example.
Saying "all people are equal" serves a single purpose (as you clearly demonstrated): to point the finger at those more well off and justify violence or other means of action against them; it's not about the poor people at all, clearly, otherwise you'd be spending your time helping them instead of commenting here. And it gets worse: you are perfectly (and predictably) following the Marxist path here...because all people are equal, inequality must exist because of oppression, so we should fight against the oppressors; in order to prevent people from becoming new oppressors in the future we need to get rid of equal opportunity and instead force equality of outcome for all. Do you not see the parallels here with what happened to the Kulaks? This is the path to genocide and there are no two ways about it.
In countries with less corruption you will see that, while assets are Pareto distributed the infamous "1%" is actually not a static group of people; rich people lose their money and poor people become wealthy and rich. Letting people fend for themselves by freeing the markets has lifted more than a billion people out of extreme poverty in the last 30 years! Yes life is hard and unfair and yes some people have advantages over others but that is simply what life is like...you're supposed to accept your suffering and bear it and do the best you can (according to the Judeo-Christian foundation of the West, at least) because trying to force everyone down to the same level does nothing but ensure millions of corpses and poverty for all.
Now, Colombia, as I'm sure you're aware, is not exactly a guiding star in the world when it comes to corruption...it ranks pretty much in the middle globally with a CPI of 37/100 (0/100 means maximally corrupt). What you describe concerning private armies and the like doesn't sound like a level playing field to me, which means that either your government is too weak to enforce the law or it is too corrupt to set up equal opportunity for its people in the first place. Given that this creates a really tough situation for those not at the top I can certainly understand where the animosity towards those who benefit most from the corruption comes from, but the problem is not some class struggle, it is the corruption!
I hope I've cleared this up enough now, since I'm starting to repeat myself here.
 
Possible alternative wonder to the Panopticon: The Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Please don't do this... Representing a super-hero movie franchise as the pinnacle of culture enlightenment seems so dumb and such a disservice to all the works of art being made today (movies or otherwise).

While these marvel movies have made a lot of money and become a phenomenon it's mostly on the back of disney pumping millions of dollars into an exiting franchise that has existed for dozens of years.

I share the opinion that if culture needs a wonder to establish an endgame condition it should just be something vague like "Utopia Project" or something similar. It will be familiar to everyone, leaves room for interpretation and should hold up quite nicely if you're still playing this patch 20 or 30 years from now.
 
Current plan is to have 3 different wonders for the 3 different ideologies. I posted 2 ideas for each ideology here

Tekamthi also suggested the idea of having a Utopia/Panopticon/Commonwealth wonder for Autocracy/Order/Freedom, respectively.

There is a poll in the OP. You'll notice that the MCU idea is not included

Current leaders in the poll are Palace of the Soviets/EPCOT/Germania
 
Current plan is to have 3 different wonders for the 3 different ideologies. I posted 2 ideas for each ideology here

Tekamthi also suggested the idea of having a Utopia/Panopticon/Commonwealth wonder for Autocracy/Order/Freedom, respectively.

There is a poll in the OP. You'll notice that the MCU idea is not included

Current leaders in the poll are Palace of the Soviets/EPCOT/Germania
With current mechanics it makes zero sense to have three wonders. Too many buildings for just a different end screen. And I'm not sure we've convinced G to change the requirements for cultural victory.
 
With current mechanics it makes zero sense to have three wonders. Too many buildings for just a different end screen. And I'm not sure we've convinced G to change the requirements for cultural victory.
Anyways I love the idea of each ideology getting its own version of the building, so that'll be what I'll do for the next version (if we keep the CV wonder in at all). So brainstorm what autocratic/ordered/freedom'd projects should define those cultural hegemons.
I would take the above statement as evidence that we (ie. actually @Erik_TheRed) convinced G that 3 wonders was a good solution. I think the main purpose is to show that worldwide cultural influence looks like very different things under very different ideologies.

Freedom: A paradise founded on the principles of market forces and mass-consumption. Cultural influence via popular ascent.
Order: monolithic building projects founded on ideological principles. Cultural influence via social engineering.
Autocracy: Neo-classical architecture meant to re-contextualize the present regime as continuous with a mythic, glorious past. Cultural influence via national myth
 
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Current plan is to have 3 different wonders for the 3 different ideologies. I posted 2 ideas for each ideology here

There is a poll in the OP. You'll notice that the MCU idea is not included

Current leaders in the poll are Palace of the Soviets/EPCOT/Germania

From my very uneducated point of view those options make as much sense as the MCU idea... 2 seem to be building projects that never came to life, so whatever culture impact they could have had can only be speculated. And one is a theme park that most people outside of america probably don't know much about (and as people have mentioned is owned by disney and in my opinion it feels kinda tacky to have things ingame associated with real life brands).

Tekamthi also suggested the idea of having a Utopia/Panopticon/Commonwealth wonder for Autocracy/Order/Freedom, respectively.

Those seem a lot more fitting to for an endgame mechanic to be honest. They're cultural concepts that still leave room for everyone to have their personal interpretation of what they represent.

But i think tu-79 raised a good point, if 3 CVs get added but they're nothing more than 3 options for the same outcome it's probably not very interesting from a gameplay standpoint, so i do wonder if it's possible to come up with slightly different mechanics for each. Things like different requirements, different bonus/penalties while building, etc.

EDIT: Also while i may disagree with some of your ideas i would like thank you for taking the initiative and creating this discussion thread and actively participating in it! It's very nice to see people that care about this wonderful mod.
 
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EPCOT was never built; all 3 are massive Incomplete building projects. The EPCOT center theme park in disneyworld is based on Walt disney’s original idea for EPCOT. I recommend you follow the link i provided to know more

IMO, I think it makes more sense for the capstone wonder(s) to be tangible buildings that represent a certain cultural outlook. Otherwise, what are are your hammers actually building? EPCOT engenders a worldview of cultural supremacy dictated by popular demand. The PotS typifies centrally-planned economies building great works ostensibly because they represent the will of the people. Germania represent’s a nation’s desire to connect itself more deeply with its own national mythos

One possibility is to make the C.V. wonder incredibly expensive, and then have one metric in your empire either converted into bonus production, or subtract from the build cost.

Ie. freedom’s gold production on empire could be converted into production when building the C.V. wonder.
Order’s C.V. wonder could have its total production cost scale negatively with population on empire
Every courthous or puppet on empire could provide a 10% production boost when constructing the C.V. wonder
 
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With current mechanics it makes zero sense to have three wonders. Too many buildings for just a different end screen. And I'm not sure we've convinced G to change the requirements for cultural victory.

I’m happy with splitting into 3 projects for CV. Gives it more flavor for minimal work (and no balance concerns, as they’ll just be reskinned panopticons.

G
 
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Yeah well the Spanish issue certainly sounds fishy; like I said I don't really know Spanish politics and Turkey is a whole separate issue in my opinion. The threat to democracy in German speaking countries and also in UK and France does not come from the right, though, it comes from the ones eroding democracy right now (i.e. the ones in power who are certainly not the New Right, since those new parties are all in the opposition).


That's not what's happening at all, though. I get your point about the countries actually throwing bombs in Syria but the two EU countries most affected by immigration as a result of the refugee crisis are Germany (in absolute numbers) and Sweden (in relative numbers); both countries have not engaged directly in offensive operations in Syria. Germany, for example, has only conducted satellite and air reconnaissance as well as intelligence gathering by other means and some in-air-refueling support for the Coalition so there is no moral obligation and certainly no legal obligation to let anyone in.
Besides, these people aren't really refugees anyway since they clearly didn't "flee" from Greece, Italy or Austria to Germany as those are all safe countries; they migrated to Germany because they get crazy amounts of money for simply being here and getting their asylum claim processed (it's actually about 1% of Germany's GDP that is being directly paid, or rather transferred from tax paying citizens, to these migrants now...absolutely insane amounts of money; there was a report a few weeks ago from a more extreme case of an Arab who came here with his 4 wives and 20 children and now gets more than 10.000 € per month plus a huge house for free while there are pensioners in the country who have worked their entire lives, paying into the system, and now need to go to soup kitchens because they can't afford to buy enough food). I think you can imagine why more and more people are starting to get really angry about this, especially since the influx still isn't being curbed.

xD, i got your point, what's happening in Germany is really stupid, sounds like laws weren't ready for that kind of thing happening.

Yes. It. Is. Jeez I can't believe I still have to argue this. The only thing people are equal in is their dignity and they should be treated as such. Other than that we are all completely different! Some are taller, some stronger, some smarter, some more beautiful and so on and all of it has consequences! And don't tell me culture makes people smarter, stronger, taller or more beautiful because that is obviously BS; it is our biological differences that do that (provided you are not starved or suffer from malnutrition) as not even differences in educational quality can significantly impact IQ, for example.
Actually, in our country capital city (Bogota), social policies in education in the infancy were reducing the educational gap between classes in our people , getting more people from the low class to the middle class with some years. It's not about biological differences, the ones richer aren't the ones more intelligent or something like that, the ones richs are the one accumulating privileges with the past of the years

Saying "all people are equal" serves a single purpose (as you clearly demonstrated): to point the finger at those more well off and justify violence or other means of action against them; it's not about the poor people at all, clearly, otherwise you'd be spending your time helping them instead of commenting here. And it gets worse: you are perfectly (and predictably) following the Marxist path here...because all people are equal, inequality must exist because of oppression, so we should fight against the oppressors; in order to prevent people from becoming new oppressors in the future we need to get rid of equal opportunity and instead force equality of outcome for all. Do you not see the parallels here with what happened to the Kulaks? This is the path to genocide and there are no two ways about it.

No, this is the difference between social democrats, progressives (no-extremists) and marxist guys. Recognizing some opression doesn't mean we have to "kill the opressor class", it's just little extremist, it's all about reducing some (not every) privileges, in order to fix social problems. In our country we have a specific thing in our constitution, which it's very interesting: "Private property have to fulfill a social and ecological function", which mean it's fine to have private property, as long as you're not generating problems in the society. When we have for example, big guys still having a lot of land, generating problems to a lot of people, or big guys having actions in our weird private-public healthcare system, desviating resources from the public hospital to the private hospital. Private property is not fullfilling a social function in those cases.

In countries with less corruption you will see that, while assets are Pareto distributed the infamous "1%" is actually not a static group of people; rich people lose their money and poor people become wealthy and rich. Letting people fend for themselves by freeing the markets has lifted more than a billion people out of extreme poverty in the last 30 years! Yes life is hard and unfair and yes some people have advantages over others but that is simply what life is like...you're supposed to accept your suffering and bear it and do the best you can (according to the Judeo-Christian foundation of the West, at least) because trying to force everyone down to the same level does nothing but ensure millions of corpses and poverty for all.
Yes, in a ideal capitalist society, the idea is to have a very big middle-working class. But because of neoliberalism, what we have now is a big middle-working class in some countries, and a lot of poverty in certain specific countries, because a certain group of people in some countries loves to use third world countries to get big reduction in prices, associating with the corruption in the local government.

Now, Colombia, as I'm sure you're aware, is not exactly a guiding star in the world when it comes to corruption...it ranks pretty much in the middle globally with a CPI of 37/100 (0/100 means maximally corrupt). What you describe concerning private armies and the like doesn't sound like a level playing field to me, which means that either your government is too weak to enforce the law or it is too corrupt to set up equal opportunity for its people in the first place. Given that this creates a really tough situation for those not at the top I can certainly understand where the animosity towards those who benefit most from the corruption comes from, but the problem is not some class struggle, it is the corruption!
I hope I've cleared this up enough now, since I'm starting to repeat myself here.

Problem is, my government is corrupt, but we don't have enough laws to fix the situation, that's why guys from some political parties are trying to change that creating laws first. But right now, some of those changes are being blocked, why?, because the guys owning a lot of land are associated with some politicians from right-wing parties

In my country, specifically, right-wing parties are very corrupt, because the "left-wing" traditional party -liberalism- ended up changing the political spectrum in the last century, being a right-wing party too, so, traditional parties are corrupt in Colombia, and only the new ones, left (like 4 or 5), and the right (like 2) are sane enough to care about people.

Classical party system is being used to block some of the neccesary reforms. Corruption is a big problem, but i don't think corruption is a isolated problem. When you have a class with a lot of privileges, historically, that class is going to use some of those privileges to get more privileges without caring about the rights from the low-middle class workers (just like education is struggling in United states, and that's why teachers are protesting in some parts of the country). Class difference is always going to end up in some corruption from the class with privileges.

We're in the middle in the corruption index because people still have a good view of institutions, but they don't have a good view of people running those institutions. And just like in some countries you have black propaganda from the left parties to support inmigration, we have black propaganda here, associating leftist as "venezolans, comunist, socialists, etc"

 
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IMO, I think it makes more sense for the capstone wonder(s) to be tangible buildings that represent a certain cultural outlook. Otherwise, what are are your hammers actually building?

The hammers (which at that stage in the game have to viewed as general productivity and not just literal hammers physically banging at things until they get built) would be used to turn these cultural concepts into reality. For example, what is your idea of an Utopia? Is it free healthcare, free housing, free education, etc? Well your hammers are going into whatever infrastructure is necessary for that to be possible.

What is your idea of a Panopticon? Is it mass surveillance where the governments knows your every move, and social scores that condition you to act a certain way? Same thing, your hammers are going into what ever is needed to make that happen.

These cultural victory conditions should be very familiar and very open to everyone's personal interpretation of these concepts.
 
I like the idea of all 3 wonders being a different vision for "The City of Tomorrow". It's simple, justifies the hammer cost and gives a reason for the cultural victory (influencing the design of future cities).
 
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