The POTUS decides to be a chicken, pulls out of Afghanistan

[Thorgalaeg]

Maybe USA, the Afghan government and the Taliban have reached some secret arrangement. Such quick and eventless reconquest is not very normal.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I wonder if the Taliban will allow the US to evacuate both Americans and their Afghani allies without interference.

 

[red_elk]

Russian media and bloggers are somewhat... "Learn how to leave properly".
Though I'd say Taliban takeover creates more problems for us.

 

[Drakle]

Tooze... he' been ingratiating himself into the euro-"atlanticist" group for years now. Good for his career, but put an end to impartial reporting if he ever did any. Having lunch with Petraeus...
Population numbers in that piece you linked to: from an american company which is as institutionally embedded with the US government as it gets, doing a "survey" in camps in Pakistan, the same camps where the CIA and the pakistanis were busy creating what would become the Taliban later. Want to bet it was the same people doing the work? I believe that war was a disaster also, but those "estimates" are not reliable. Tooze ends up with a chart alleging a 50-50 split between urban and rural population within Afghanistan in 1987. Total bollocks, very large portions of Afghanistan stood outside the fighting at the time. "origins are a little obscure" indeed.

Imo Tooze is now working to downplay the defeat of the policy towards Afghanistan in which he was a willing participant. Trying to excuse and relativize that policy indeed.

Oh great, you are a Soviet apologist as well. You are speaking absolute rot. Tooze is a great historian, and hardly a American or British for that matter, imperialist.

Tooze uses neither the most extreme estimates of population loss, instead using a more midrange figure. He easily could have pegged it in the 14-16% range and justified it. There are plenty that are worse in terms of population loss, and somewhat claim outright genocide. And even the Soviet sources agree as to the tactics used, re depopulation of areas they couldn't consistently control, and along border strips, destruction of rural infrastructure, mine fields, poisoning of areas, massacres, arial bombardments, rape, and almost no restrictions on rules of engagement. The US has killed plenty of people in Afghanistan, and bad stuff happened.

The areas left out of the serious fighting, are the remaining agriculturists. A quarter of the population is still a sizeable number.

 

[r16]

supposedly the "first" picture from the Taliban held Kabil :

 

[innonimatu]

Oh great, you are a Soviet apologist as well. You are speaking absolute rot. Tooze is a great historian, and hardly a American or British for that matter, imperialist.

Tooze uses neither the most extreme estimates of population loss, instead using a more midrange figure. He easily could have pegged it in the 14-16% range and justified it. There are plenty that are worse in terms of population loss, and somewhat claim outright genocide. And even the Soviet sources agree as to the tactics used, re depopulation of areas they couldn't consistently control, and along border strips, destruction of rural infrastructure, mine fields, poisoning of areas, massacres, arial bombardments, rape, and almost no restrictions on rules of engagement. The US has killed plenty of people in Afghanistan, and bad stuff happened.

The areas left out of the serious fighting, are the remaining agriculturists. A quarter of the population is still a sizeable number.

Tooze is a great archive rat but also a careerist. I read several of his books but I'm not blind to the groups he's been joining with in the past 8 years or so. He's taking care of his academic career with the euro-atlanticist group and that means defending certain policies and groups and attacking others while appearing to be above it all. It's a sad corruption of good academic talent but then again privately he would probably say that it's also the condition to be given the means to develop it... and perhaps he's right.

And I don't want to excuse the USSR but one should notice that both the USSR and the US were deeply involved in devastating Afghanistan in the 1980s. Together with a series of other countries. When one arms a side in a civil war one gets involved. This time the taliban were actually more impressive than the warlords before because they seem to have managed to take over without any relevant foreign support. It does not look like any government in the world was supporting them. Not even Pakistan which might be more comfortable with a divided Afghanistan. We'll see how it goes, probably discord will not take long.

 

[innonimatu]

marshall Dostum was a taxi driver when the Soviets invaded ...

also in the news , internet is on fire or something after some Portugese guy in an American think tank says Kabil might fall in 72 hours .

So what do you think of Dostum's taste for interiors? Perhaps Erdogan can find him a new job as a decorator? If the sultan's palace is not yet finished.

And I don't know about the women, but at least the dogs are safe?

 

[Kyriakos]

Doesn't the US have a castle-complex "embassy" in Kabul?

 

[Zardnaar]

Massoud apparently is dead. He lead his forces out to fight everyone gave up and he got killed.

Not sure how reliable it is. r/Afghanistan some Sfghanis are posting in English.

 

[Zardnaar]

ANA was apparently an illusion. On paper 300k Taliban 60k.

80% though were ghost soldiers. Taliban cut deals with various tribal leaders who know what's actually going on.

No ammunition, money or food. Ammo was sold on the black market.

 

[innonimatu]

Doesn't the US have a castle-complex "embassy" in Kabul?

It doesn't really matter now does it, all they need is a helipad on the roof.

@Zardnaar living in commander style was expensive. And that Massoud would be the brother of the one who would have mattered if he wasn't killed 20 years ago?
No glory in dying but it's as close as it gets, didn't shame the family name.

This might provide a lesson in political theory for americans.
Insurrection:

Playing around:


Notice what each are holding.

 

[Zardnaar]

Massoud was the son iirc.

He seemed genuinely somewhat popular and tried to fight.

He might turn up alive but I doubt it. Reddit often beats media and a few Afghanis speak English.

 

[innonimatu]

Oh. I was wondering, the brother was kind of old and had been deep in politics, would be more natural for him to negotiate or flee. The son then, too bad.
Edit: interesting, seems like the son had fallen in with the british rather than the french. Went looking for info in the french embassy's news but all I could find was an ambassador who can add one more "ex-" to his titles videoing his own exit by helicopter. And some in hindsight wildly optimistic (not to say plain false) recent news about the supposed successes of the afghan security forces in their fights...

Ghani said he fled to avoid bloodshed. He has an aversion to his own blood being shed. I wonder if the taliban intend to set up a tradition with Karzai... that one better be running away now also.

 

[r16]

dostum was the typical way to conduct business in Afghanistan , naturally not my thing nor method , and the guy who used to handle him was a very first victim of Ergenekon conspiracies , dying in jail , out of a heart "attack" . So , no , ı don't think he would ever be employed as a decorator , especially there should have been thousands in New Turkey , both richer and owning more stocks of gold .

 

[amadeus]

Stupid question but how do they not all get the coronavirus? No masks, close quarters—and let’s be honest—questionable personal hygiene.

 

[innonimatu]

@r16 now that I know who was that portuguese guy - good riddance if he had stuck around and been left behind inn Kabul. Unsurprisingly he's pals with Tooze...
But this one stepped out of line on euroatlanticism, got a bit too hysterical rather than stoically adaptative after his experience of being unimportant for the empire after all. Prosecute Biden? Me thinks his career prospects are no longer bright.

Stupid question but how do they not all get the coronavirus? No masks, close quarters—and let’s be honest—questionable personal hygiene.

I thought about mentioning that, but feared sarcasm overload! Ask if they had allowed the palace to catch some air after the president fled.
They get it and most survive and shrug it off... compared to so much other stuff ongoing that must be a minute concert there.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Massoud was the son iirc.

He seemed genuinely somewhat popular and tried to fight.

He might turn up alive but I doubt it. Reddit often beats media and a few Afghanis speak English.

I think everyone is pretty certain he died in 2001
.

 

[r16]

ı was reading a bloggy stuff that dispenses Pentagon lies where he was mentioned , with his prediction . Have no idea otherwise , but being in a think tank seems to be a sure thing to make a guess about affiliations ...

that place is terrible right now , no , actually after the Trump's coup . With the name calling going on , you can not read Pentagon's lies .

 

[red_elk]

Taliban representative just declared the war is officially over.
He gave thanks to all the participants and said everyone can go now.

 

[Hygro]

It doesn't really matter now does it, all they need is a helipad on the roof.

@Zardnaar living in commander style was expensive. And that Massoud would be the brother of the one who would have mattered if he wasn't killed 20 years ago?
No glory in dying but it's as close as it gets, didn't shame the family name.

This might provide a lesson in political theory for americans.
Insurrection:

Playing around:


Notice what each are holding.

American guns.