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The salary for achieving the American Dream

That's what insurance is for, and why I support universal health care.

Next year I'll be getting a hefty raise as I top out at the end of my pay scale. Unfortunately that means I won't go any higher. :(. I've only been 2 years with my company, I max out at 3 years.

Now I should mention most women now days work as well. So you are doubling your income. And kids expenses are not that great. I was hardly a burden at all to my parents. Assuming you have insurance, clothing and food will be the greatest costs. Assuming you don't take them to McDonalds every day (and I hope not), food costs can be low if you prepare your own food. Clothing just depends on where you buy it. If you insist on buying name brand clothing for you children, yes that will be expensive.

I also support universal health care. But that's a whole other topic of discussion.

I'm well aware that most women in familes work. I was talking about household income. Actually, if you have a spouse that doesn't work, you can probably maintain the same standard of living with a lower income, since the spouse will do a lot of work that you'd normally have to higher someone for.

Yes, it's possible to raise a family for cheap- I'm saying you can't! I'm just arguing that a stereotypical middle-class family should be able to afford a reasonable amount of luxuries and comforts for the family. The clothes don't have to be designer labels, but they shouldn't have to be wal-mart/thrift store either.

Here's another thing I just noticed- the per capita gnp in the USA is $47,000. Multiply that by 5, and you're conveniently close to my ballpark figure of $250,000. In other words, if every single person in the USA earned exactly the same amount of money (including babies, which would be ridiculous, but nevermind) a family of five would have an income of about $250,000. The reason most people have less than that is because of the massive income disparity in this country.
 
Except you haven't even been close to "reasonable" in your description of luxuries.... You've easily budgeted for luxuries 3 or 4 times over. 10k on clothes is bloody ridiculous.
 
Exactly, it makes me think that you haven't, you know, bought things before. I'm not sure I've spent 10K combined on all my clothes in my LIFE, and I own some nice clothes.
 
The clothes don't have to be designer labels, but they shouldn't have to be wal-mart/thrift store either.

Not relevant to your point, but Wal-mart clothes aren't too bad, the quality of t-shirts, jeans, etc. aren't much different than the quality of stuff from America Eagle, A&F, etc., but without the branding.
 
Except you haven't even been close to "reasonable" in your description of luxuries.... You've easily budgeted for luxuries 3 or 4 times over. 10k on clothes is bloody ridiculous.

Like I've ALREADY EXPLAINED, that part was not just clothes but anything you buy irregularly. Clothes, appliances, home repair, toiletries, lawn care etc. This stuff isn't free. Yes you can live without it- rent an apartment and live like a hobo- but that's not the kind of lifestyle here.

It would be nice if someone else would post a hypothetical budge, so that I can take cheap shots at someone else based on a quick glance.
 
Not relevant to your point, but Wal-mart clothes aren't too bad, the quality of t-shirts, jeans, etc. aren't much different than the quality of stuff from America Eagle, A&F, etc., but without the branding.

If you think that wal-mart clothes are as good as name-brand clothes, than you don't know much about clothes. That would explain a lot about why you think my budget is so ridiculous, if you can't tell the difference between good stuff and cheap stuff.
 
If you think that wal-mart clothes are as good as name-brand clothes, than you don't know much about clothes. That would explain a lot about why you think my budget is so ridiculous, if you can't tell the difference between good stuff and cheap stuff.

Depends on the clothes. I wouldn't buy shoes or a suit at wal-mart...but how nice of an athletic T shirt do you need? Do you need a the 40 dollar Nike gym shorts, when you can a pair without the swoosh for 8?

Wal-Mart, or slightly more upscale department stores (Kohls, Target) are where actual middle class families buy lots of causal clothes. Middle class people don't buy 40 dollar socks :)
 
If you think that wal-mart clothes are as good as name-brand clothes, than you don't know much about clothes. That would explain a lot about why you think my budget is so ridiculous, if you can't tell the difference between good stuff and cheap stuff.

Nah, I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

I get where you're coming from with suits; $1000 gets you a nice made-to-measure suit, double that and you can start looking at bespoke options, either of which are going to be better than something off-the-rack, regardless of how nicely you get the OTR tailored but I specifically mentioned jeans and t-shirts.

T-shirts are pretty simple, depending on your body type you can find ones at walmart that fit well, have quality stitching, and are made of nice material - adding a (non-walmart) brand doesn't improve this design.

Middle class people don't buy 40 dollar socks :)

I think my sock budget is greater than my shirt budget. :(
 
I think this video perfectly demonstrates the two divergent views on the American dream. Stick me with Randy and the better class of losers :)


Link to video.
 
On the topic of suits--you can buy a nice name brand tailored suit at Macy's for less than $500.00. Hell you can get one for $300.00

On the topic of clothes (and shoes, if you want to go there)--I only have one thing to add: factory stores. Well two things: factory stores and Nordstrom Rack. You can buy name brand clothes at either of these for dirt cheap, especially if you go on a sale day like labor day or something.
 
On the topic of suits--you can buy a nice name brand tailored suit at Macy's for less than $500.00. Hell you can get one for $300.00

Sure, but even with tailoring, unless you get lucky with your body shape/size, an off-the-rack suit isn't likely to fit quite as precisely as a made-to-measure suit.

You get differences in construction too, even brand-name suits at department stores tend to have fused rather than canvassed jackets - if you don't know the difference between the two, you're not likely to care, but canvassed jackets tend to last longer than fused jackets.
 
True. If you need suits for work though, you want something you don't care about wearing all the time and you want a bunch of different ones.

Is "fused and canvassed" the same as the 2 layer/3 layer difference?
 
Here's another thing I just noticed- the per capita gnp in the USA is $47,000. Multiply that by 5, and you're conveniently close to my ballpark figure of $250,000. In other words, if every single person in the USA earned exactly the same amount of money (including babies, which would be ridiculous, but nevermind) a family of five would have an income of about $250,000. The reason most people have less than that is because of the massive income disparity in this country.

Or because not every living person is in the workforce. I know of many families where there is only one bread-winner and even more where only 1 has a full-time job and the other parent is part time.

At the most you would multiply the $47,000 by 2, but most of the time not even that much because one parent will not have a full-time job.
 
-You want your kids to have the best possible education. That means paying about 10k per year, per child, for a private school/lessons. That also means saving about 10k per year, per child, so that you'll be able to someday pay for them to attend a really good private university. This puts us at 60k to start out.

It's already been said but Harvard isn't 'middle class', and neither is private k-12 schooling.

-Do a "family activity" once a week, like go to a sports game, or dinner and a movie. $40 a person, 50 times a year, costs $10k.

"Middle class" goes to a professional sports game every week of the year? And even that I don't know if season tickets cost that much per week. Who goes to a movie every single week? Perhaps a teenager, but not families. Dinner and a movie (with every person having jumbo popcorn and jumbo drink) is $30/person unless I try real hard to find an expensive restaurant, and who is really hungry after a jumbo popcorn?

And frankly, I'd rather spend $7 total to rent a movie, have microwave popcorn and a 12 pack of soda than spend $20 per person for less popcorn, less to drink, and only a slightly better movie.

This is one thing that some families do that is not really necessary and if they need to save money they can easily trim at least some of it off their budget by going to a movie once a month rather than every week, and going to cheaper family entertainment.

Dinner: $20 a person. Movie ticket: $10 a person. Popcorn + drink: another $10. Have you been to a movie lately?
Of course you can eat cheaper going to McDonalds, but you can also go places much more expensive.

WTH? I can find a ton of places other than McD's to eat for $10 per person or less. Remember, the kids don't eat as much so their meal should be cheaper. I have a hard time finding a place to spend $20 per person or more unless I want to eat two meals or have three servings of dessert or something.

-Regular food: about $20k. That's $11/person, per day. A lot of people spend much more than that.

With that kind of money I could eat out twice a day at a locally owned nice family restaurant. If you are counting the expense of eating out in this expense then you wouldn't count it in the 'family activity' part of your budget. This is part of the problem you seem to be having and why all your numbers are so high because it seems some things might be getting counted twice or three times.

Alot of people spend higher than that ($11/day) is true. What a waste, though. Except for meat there is little to no difference in quality of grocery food (I'm not talking spaghettios vs. steaks here, I'm talking about the difference between name brand food and generic brands). Vegetables are cheap and healthy, and no you don't need to eat nothing but vegetables, but if vegetables make up a good portion of your diet you will have a cheap and healthy diet.

-2 cars, both in good condition. I'll assume you buy a new car once every 3 years, spending about $30,000 on it including gas and maintenence. That costs 10k/year.

At first I thought maybe your math wasn't too off on this (each car lasting 6 years), but then I realized that you aren't getting anything back for trading in your cars. So either you are giving away your cars after 6 years or you are buying cars that are in excess of 30k...... so in other words not middle class. Gas is only about $1800 per year (15,000 miles, 25 mpg, $3 per gallon), tires and oil changes are pretty insignificant and you shouldn't have any maintance problems for those new cars until they are well over 6 years old (after you've gotten rid of them).

My last car was a pickup I bought when it was 3 years old. It lasted me 10 more years (215k miles and still doesn't burn any oil) until I got a family and needed something more than a two seater. Bought a used minivan with 55k miles on it for under 10k and that will hopefully last me 10 years as well.

-House: this one is hard to estimate because it depends heavily on where you live and what you want, plus the precise details of the mortgage. I'll guess 20k/year, which should buy a house with a nice big yard and a bedroom for each kid.

I won't go near this one as house prices vary so much. A 30 year mortgage at 20k/year is 600k. I don't think that is middle class in many parts of the country, but it very well could be in some parts. Is a four bedroom house really needed? Ever hear of a bunk bed?

-Health care/insurance/utilities: Also hard to estimate, let's say 10k.

If you pay for your own insurance, sure (but personally I would look at the higher deductible plans). If your employer pays for most of your health insurance than no. I pay about $200/month for family health insurance and $100/month for car insurance. So no, my utilities does not cost $500/month.

-Clothes and other daily necessities: Another 10k.

The middle class isn't the Huxtable family from the Cosby show that has a new wardrobe every week.

-Family vacation: Another 10k

Please tell me what kind of vacation is this? A 10 day vacation would mean you are spending $1,000 per day. For 10k I can fly a family of 5 to China and stay for a month.

5 airline tickets * $400 + 3x motel room * $200/night * 7 days + 5x disneyland tickets + food + souveneirs will run you about 10k.

Oh, it's disneyland. A trip to disneyland is a thing that a middle class family will do once a lifetime or every 5-10 years, not every year.

Your expenses do add up to about 8k. Lets' look at them:

Plane tickets=$2000
Hotel rooms = $4200
Disneyland = $1690 ($169 per ticket per 3 days x 2 = 6 days for 5 people)
Food $2100 ($20 x 3 meals a day x 5 people)

You could cut that expense 25% by having the kids in one room and spending $10 per person per meal rather than $20. A room with two double beds is just fine for 3 kids. When I was a kid and we had a family of 5 we managed just fine in ONE room with two double beds (take turns sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor). We took a family vacation every single year. But no, never to disneyland, and we drove rather than flew.

Any luxury goods you want to buy: Put 10k here also. This includes things like christmas and birthday presents, which are almost mandatory.

Really? Your kids won't mind that you decided not to give them anything for christmas or their birthday? Your wife won't mind that you don't do anything on your anniversary or valentien's day? Your friends won't mind that you never do anything with them? And you're such a spartan that you never even buy yourself a nice cup of coffee? OK then, enjoy that "American Dream" you're living

So that means everyone gets $1000 for birthdays and $1000 for Christmas? Would these other expenses you mention (that don't get counted in another category) realistically add up to $833 per month?

Also note what this list does not include: giving to charity, expensive hobbies, hospital visits, legal fees, interest on debt, baby-sitting/lawn mowing help, taking care of elderly parents, etc.

Some Middle class families spend money on those things, not all of them do. And some families may indeed spend as high as some of the things you have posted, but they don't spend that high in all of them at the same time. Yeah it would be disastrous if they tried to spend that much in all of those areas.

People make choices in what to spend their money on, and don't spend the max they can on everything.

One family thinks it is more important to have a nice house so they spend more on the house but drive cheaper cars and buy all their clothes from Walmart. Another family thinks it is more important to have nice clothes so will spend too much money on clothes while sacrificing how nice of a house they have. That is the reality of a middle class family. The stuff you are talking about is Bevery Hills 90210, rich yuppy stuff.

When I was single I was earning less than 40k a year and could afford to fly to China every year because that is what I wanted to do and I didn't spend my money on other things I didn't need such as movie tickets, eating out, music CD's, Ipods, etc.
 
Ok, now let's say that instead of just taking care of yourself, you have to take care of a five person family. Your expenses will rise a bit- about five times as much! Suddenly you need five times as much money to maintain your standard of living. And if you start earning more money, your taxes also go up a lot. 250k split between 5 people is not much more than 40k for a single person.

250k won't buy you a mansion and ferrari while taking care of a family, sorry.

Disgustipated is living the American dream. You have the wrong interpretation.
Costs of living as families grow does not rise in constant terms (its decreasing).

Materialism isn't the American Dream. Self-sufficiency, pride, taking care of your family, etc. Things that may not be all about money
 
On the topic of suits--you can buy a nice name brand tailored suit at Macy's for less than $500.00. Hell you can get one for $300.00

On the topic of clothes (and shoes, if you want to go there)--I only have one thing to add: factory stores. Well two things: factory stores and Nordstrom Rack. You can buy name brand clothes at either of these for dirt cheap, especially if you go on a sale day like labor day or something.

On suits, I have custom fitted suits made from my South Korean tailor for 400. And they're awesome.
 
On suits, I have custom fitted suits made from my South Korean tailor for 400. And they're awesome.

By "custom fitted", do you mean off-the-rack suits that are custom tailored, or made-to-measure?

For made-to-measure, $400 is unheard from a regular menswear store, it's typically closer the price on made-to-measure suits you'll see if you travel to southeast Asia for suits, or go to one of those travelling Asian suit guys who take your measurements and mail you your custom suit from Asia.
 
By "custom fitted", do you mean off-the-rack suits that are custom tailored, or made-to-measure?

For made-to-measure, $400 is unheard from a regular menswear store, it's typically closer the price on made-to-measure suits you'll see if you travel to southeast Asia for suits, or go to one of those travelling Asian suit guys who take your measurements and mail you your custom suit from Asia.

The last one. My guy flies in from South Korea every 6 months, has a pretty strong clientele in DC. We get measured here, and then he mails us the suit back. I have yet to receive a suit that isn't a 9 or 10 in fit and shape.
 
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