The Sword of Islam: RFC Medieval Middle East

[Tigranes]

@ Siege Warfare for Timurids

Here is my idea. Remember the Mongol Camp in Warlords? It could spawn Horse Archers if left on Plains or Trenchers when left on Forest (more likely to do so). It would be awesome to create Siege Engineer unit which would work as a Camp for siege weapons only. If you fortify him on the forest there is a probability that it will produce Catapult or Trebuchet. I always liked the thrill in the Mongol scenario when a new unit suddenly appears to help you. Not sure if AI will be smart enough to use this unit effectively, though... By the way Timurids mostly used Siege Towers, but I don't think one could fit another siege unit between Trebuchet and Bombard.


@ Armenian 3rd UHV.

I don't know why you opt for Large Armenian Empire with 10 historical provinces. Armenian changed very drastically after being the first to adopt Christianity. Some people still talk about Armenia from Sea (Caspian) to Sea (Mediterranean), but the dominant idea during the Middle Ages was survival, not territorial gains. Culture could be a far better 3rd UHV for Armenians. Late 1200s and early 1300s where marked not by the Greater Armenia, but rather by Cilicia (conquered by Mamluk by 1375). 1293 -- The Catholicosate is moved to the Cilician capital of Sis. How about to require to have certain amount of culture in Sis (in Cilicia) ?

 

[MessageMan]

If anybody wants to read up on Timur's battle tactics you can go here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=s_...&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's only a couple pages, but useful info I couldn't find on wikipedia.

 

[The Turk]

@Siege Warfare in General
Guys, I think we are on to something EPIC. Instead of restricting this to ONLY the Timurds, why not have this for all the other civs as well. And basically, you include a unit called, a "Siege Engineer", and based on how advanced you are, "siege wise" (as in if you have catapults or trebuchets enabled), that is what you siege engineer would spawn, in a turn, as in you would have the siege engineer take a turn to build the siege unit. And we could have the siege engineer to be like a missionary so that, if he is caught by an enemy unit, he is converted over to their side (like the caravan unit). And yes, I would give the "Siege Engineer" 3 movement points, especially since its just a "worker" type unit anyways.

Also you should make ALL siege engines cost 1 gold per turn (OR 2 gold per turn), so that the player is discouraged from keeping the siege engine for long

OR

Give the Trebuchet/ Catapult, no movement points, so that the player is forced to disband it, in the end (I by far like this deal the best, as it won't hurt the player too much)

Also the siege engineer, would be more expensive to build then a catapult or trebuchet, but you could make unlimited siege weapons with one of these siege engineer's, but you would probably need 2-3 to make siege weapons fast enough for you. Also do you think they should be charged to build a siege weapons, perhaps like 5 gold or something like that.

Lastly, in general, I would suggest that you include another siege weapon, pre-gunpowder. Not sure what though...
Perhaps one of those barrel tossing things, like they have in MTW2

I'll let you guys figure out the rest of it, but these were just my ideas, that popped into my head, so I hope they get implemented either way

PS. Once canons are founded, the "siege engineer" unit is obsolete, as canons, were a lot smaller and versatile then trebuchets were, not to mention, they were not found "on the spot" as trebuchets/catapults were

PPS. Alternatively, you could have a "Trebuchet Engineer" and a "Catapult Engineer", if you don't want to have one guy, but I think for the sake of simplicity, having one "Siege Engineer" would be the best

@Drafting for the Ottomans (and in general)
I cannot tell you how baffled I was when I used the "drafting" system for the first time, and realized, that the most powerful soldier in the WORLD, around the 15-17th century, the Janissary, was actually being represented by a spearman. I mean really!?
I have to say, that the Ottomans have a HORRIBLE UP. BUT I do like the idea, and since you don't want to have the Janissary as the Ottoman UU, I would suggest having it so that the units which are created by the Ottoman drafting, are more powerful, then simple spearman. Otherwise, PLEASE find a way to represent the Janissary unit better, because this is something (along with the 4th Crusade), which is DEFINITELY lacking in this game. Otherwise my other idea would be so that their UP, would be an additional UU, the Janissary. But seriously Embryodead, you need to find a way to represent them better, then having them shown as peasant spearmen.

@Armenia 3 UHV
Ya I personally don't like what your going to change the Armenian UHV to, I mean, I like the idea which Tigranes came up with, but overall I preferred the no Islam in the Caucasus. The Armenian empire building is a bit silly, the Armenians should definitely be on the defensive most of the time, rather than trying to "expand" their empire. Please change it back to their original UHV (and perhaps have to remove Catholicism as well). Or have it so that the Armenians HAVE to capture Cicilian Armenia. But the idea of them having to own 10 provinces, is a bit silly, and used too much by others for their UHV's

Influence Driven War
Influence driven war is working well for me so far, but my only complaint, is that I wish you put back the messages that popped up whenever you lost or won a battle, like it did in RoM. I mean, you've put it so much into the background, that I don't even realize its actually happening, until I physically check, to see the culture around my Empire. I would therefore suggest, that you re-implement the messages which say, "you have lost 5% culture..." (or whatever they say), so that the player knows how much culture he has lost/won in that last battle

Beavers!
Ok, I mean seriously, you really need to find another graphic for furs, because the whole "beavers" graphic is kind of stupid, especially considering that beavers can only be found in North America. So please with God's speed, please find a new graphic for them, as it continues to unnerve me, when I see them roaming around in Central Asia, lol
Also please add the camel units (even RFCA has them, and their not even representing a region with a lot of camels )
And lastly, if you could, I would consider adding slaves as a resource, like they are in MTW2, and they could be a requisite for building a slave market, and producing Ghulam Guards and Lancers

 

[MessageMan]

Maybe the third siege weapon should be a battering ram that only damages city defenses.

I like the spawn idea, but I don't know if the AI can use it effectively.

 

[embryodead]

I don't know why you opt for Large Armenian Empire with 10 historical provinces. Armenian changed very drastically after being the first to adopt Christianity. Some people still talk about Armenia from Sea (Caspian) to Sea (Mediterranean), but the dominant idea during the Middle Ages was survival, not territorial gains. Culture could be a far better 3rd UHV for Armenians. Late 1200s and early 1300s where marked not by the Greater Armenia, but rather by Cilicia (conquered by Mamluk by 1375). 1293 -- The Catholicosate is moved to the Cilician capital of Sis. How about to require to have certain amount of culture in Sis (in Cilicia) ?

That is fine, I'll change it to cultural victory then, which is a more flexible condition, but it won't be in Sis. To set it straight, we're talking about Bagratid Armenia. Cilicia is a seperate, currently non-playable kingdom that is created by Armenian refugees if Bagratid Armenia is destroyed during Seljuk invasion. It doesn't make sense to have the flourishing Armenia, who just defeated the Seljuks, to move to Cilicia...

Re: Timurids/siege engines, guys, those ideas are insane from the AI programming point of view, meaning, sure, everything is doable, but I'm more like to go insane than ever pull them off Not to mention it just makes the game needlessly complicated. But I'm all for replacing the Timurid UU with a fast siege unit, whatever it will be.

 

[embryodead]

@The Turk

Drafting & Janissaries
It's an omission on my part, apparently I disabled both archers/marskmen and heavy spearmen (both Ottoman Marksmen and Heavy Spearmen use different Janissary graphics). So it will be fixed, thanks for pointing it out!

Siege engines/Armenia
See my previous post. I'm sorry I've dealt with the siege idea with one sentence, but coding the AI for such a thing exceeds everything I've done with this mod.

Beavers
I know, I searched, there's no such graphic. Long before I released the mod I tried to make my own leopards based on the lions resource from RFRE, and well, it didn't work.

Camels & Slaves
There are four camel units in the mod already. As for slaves, I thought I already said why I scrapped the idea. The major slave-producing grounds are Georgia (Circassia, Kipchaks), Makuria (Sudan, Somalia) and Transoxiana (Kipchaks & other Turks). Neither Georgia nor Makuria use Slaves, and neither will trade them to Muslim civs. Where would you put them, then? Just putting them in Mesopotamia and Egypt, so that the slave-using civs use them, isn't fun at all.

 

[The Turk]

@Embryodead
Well first off, that sucks that you can't do the whole siege idea, and no, I think the Mongol Horse Archer is great, and a "faster moving trebuchet" would just be stupid. So I guess, as long as you give them "normal" trebuchets at the beginning of the game I think that should be fine. Its just such a shame that you couldn't formulate our idea, but its fine, I understand there are always limits to modding

As for the Janissaries, yes PLEASE change it, to represent "Janissary"looking type infantry. Also does the AI know how to "draft" correctly? As in will they actually use the UP?

As for the beavers, I am probably the most upset about this. So basically you are saying, that for a mod of Middle East, we are stuck with beavers?? How did you change the cow resource, to being brown? And if we are going to be stuck with beavers for the long haul, I would consider removing them, as its a bit ridiculous

Ok ok, I will concede on the slave resource, I understand that it would be very hard very a civ like the Ghazanvids to get a slave from the Sudan . BUT if you implement my Silk Road/Sub Saharan Africa Trade idea, then that could requisite, as you would have to establish trade with Sub Saharan Africa to get slaves, which in turn would allow you to build a Slave Market, and eventually Ghulams.
(You could also have a Southern Russia Trade, for furs and slaves, that way you could take out the furs from the game, that make this game look weird)

And I don't understand what you said about the Camels. Yes there are camel units, so why not have a camel resource? So basically in the same way that players need Horses to make cavalry units and ivory to make Elephant units, so should players be required to get camels to make camel units. Also obviously, the camel units, would give a certain bonus, probably just like ivory, it would be the Elephant of the Middle East per se

And Lastly, I'm finding the Ak Koyunlu, to be a bit strange in this game. As shown by the map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aq_Qoyunlu.png
The reason being is that they NEVER capture Baghdad, in fact once the Abbasids collapse, are rarely see anyone capture Baghdad, and some of the other cities. I don't know if you can, but if you could program them to move South, I think that would be better, then having them continue to attack the Ottomans.
Also I read that their capital was Tabriz, but I am quite certain, that they NEVER make it, nor do they have it as their capital, instead its Dibryikar (or however you spell it).
Basically the Ak Koyunlu, NEVER come CLOSE to capturing the area like they did in the map, but the cruel joke is that these areas (of Mesopotamia, and Persia) ARE NEVER inhabited at the time of their spawn! I really don't understand why the Ak Koyunlu never expand properly.

Also while researching about the Ak Koyunlu, I came across the "Kara Koyunlu" (who were established in 1375), who controlled all of the Caucuses area and Mesopotamia (including Baghdad). So how are they represented in this game? Because they owned quite a big portion of the map as well, and probably should be represented.

Also in the game you put Baghdad's name as, "Bagdad", but shouldn't it be spelt with an "h" after the "g"?

The Sultanate of Rum, also need to be more affected by the Mongols. I would even consider having some Mongol Horse Archers, spawn close to their borders. Because historically, it was the Mongols who had saved the the Byzantines from an early destruction, as they swooped down and smashed the Turkish army. In the end, the few survivors of the Sultanate of Rum, became vassals of the Byzantines (but this does not need to be reproduced in the game ). Also this would help the Ottomans to rise to greater prominence, later on, as they would not have to contend with such a strong Sultanate of Rum.

Lastly, the Beylik of Kerman, NEEDS TO BE NERFED! In the game, they end up controlling all of Eastern Turkey, when in reality they were reduced to controlling a small section of South Eastern Turkey. I would recommend that you shrink their spawn zone, to just a small section of Anatolia, rather than controlling ALL of the Sultatnate of Rum's old lands.

PS. Some civs are STILL respawning TOO quickly! Especially the Abbasids (actually perhaps ONLY the Abbasids). For example, they died in 1136AD and respawned in 1157AD! The Abbasids should NOT be respawning AT ALL! They never did, come back as a full frontal power, and I don't know why in this game, we have to continue to contend with them respawning, over and over again! Please stop them from respawning all the time!

PPS. Cilicia and Edessa should be removed from KoJ border provinces, as to give them a penalty whenever they try to capture these cities. PoA should NOT be hindered by the KoJ for land in Cilicia and Edessa, especially when KoJ is a lot stronger then them. So please remove those two provinces from the KOJ, border provinces list

 

[Tigranes]

Poor edead, his excellent mod stirred up so many ideas and passions Fast siege weapon is not a bad idea after all. The fact that it moves with the spead of Lancer is not very realistic of course, but look at this less literaly and more creative, we are humans not AI after all Fast Siege Tower/Trebuchet only means that Timurids were excellent at siege warfare and had siege weapons AVAILABLE wherever their Amir needed them to be at -- Georgia or Damascus.

 

[MessageMan]

@Embryodead
Well first off, that sucks that you can't do the whole siege idea, and no, I think the Mongol Horse Archer is great, and a "faster moving trebuchet" would just be stupid. So I guess, as long as you give them "normal" trebuchets at the beginning of the game I think that should be fine. Its just such a shame that you couldn't formulate our idea, but its fine, I understand there are always limits to modding

Is it likely to get 12% map territory in 130 years if your trebuchets only have 1 movement?

 

[MessageMan]

Influence Driven War
Influence driven war is working well for me so far, but my only complaint, is that I wish you put back the messages that popped up whenever you lost or won a battle, like it did in RoM. I mean, you've put it so much into the background, that I don't even realize its actually happening, until I physically check, to see the culture around my Empire. I would therefore suggest, that you re-implement the messages which say, "you have lost 5% culture..." (or whatever they say), so that the player knows how much culture he has lost/won in that last battle

Did I miss a patch?

 

[Tigranes]

I know that we need to be conservative and give priority to perfecting the existing stuff, rather than adding new content, but can I please squize in with this idea.

I think Mongols. Those of Chenghiz, Ogedei and Hulegu. And I think Ilkhanate. Why let AI have all the fun? Remember Warlords scenario -- Barbarian Horde? Humans where permited for the first time in Civ history to swap tables with AI and be a bad guys for a change. No culture, no building, no religion, no civilized nonsense -- just kill and burn. Warlords designers where able to pass control of Barbarians to the Human player, so thats doable.

This will provade very special flavor to the entire mod. Unique power could be -- all captured cities get automatically razed until the founding year of Ilkhanate (1256 if I am not mistaken) AND razed city provide Mongol Barbarians with the unique unit of that civilization. Barbarian human player starts with some great Generals and some irreplaceble units (one cannot train units if the city you conqure gets razed automatically). Ilkhans finally settled in Tabriz and populated Herat. 1st UHV could be to rise certain amout moneys from razing and pillaging. Second to build Summer Palace in Tabriz (after 1256 when their razing power expires, while their original capital could be some nominal city behind mountains in far north east of the map). And the 3rd UHv could be to reverse history and defeat Mameluks.

Please don't say no rigjt away! Sleep on it and give us your thoughts

 

[civ_king]

I know that we need to be conservative and give priority to perfecting the existing stuff, rather than adding new content, but can I please squize in with this idea.

I think Mongols. Those of Chenghiz, Ogedei and Hulegu. And I think Ilkhanate. Why let AI have all the fun? Remember Warlords scenario -- Barbarian Horde? Humans where permited for the first time in Civ history to swap tables with AI and be a bad guys for a change. No culture, no building, no religion, no civilized nonsense -- just kill and burn. Warlords designers where able to pass control of Barbarians to the Human player, so thats doable.

This will provade very special flavor to the entire mod. Unique power could be -- all captured cities get automatically razed until the founding year of Ilkhanate (1256 if I am not mistaken) AND razed city provide Mongol Barbarians with the unique unit of that civilization. Barbarian human player starts with some great Generals and some irreplaceble units (one cannot train units if the city you conqure gets razed automatically). Ilkhans finally settled in Tabriz and populated Herat. 1st UHV could be to rise certain amout moneys from razing and pillaging. Second to build Summer Palace in Tabriz (after 1256 when their razing power expires, while their original capital could be some nominal city behind mountains in far north east of the map). And the 3rd UHv could be to reverse history and defeat Mameluks.

Please don't say no rigjt away! Sleep on it and give us your thoughts

no they didn't, they faked it

 

[embryodead]

And Lastly, I'm finding the Ak Koyunlu, to be a bit strange in this game. As shown by the map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aq_Qoyunlu.png
The reason being is that they NEVER capture Baghdad, in fact once the Abbasids collapse, are rarely see anyone capture Baghdad, and some of the other cities. I don't know if you can, but if you could program them to move South, I think that would be better, then having them continue to attack the Ottomans.
Also I read that their capital was Tabriz, but I am quite certain, that they NEVER make it, nor do they have it as their capital, instead its Dibryikar (or however you spell it).
Basically the Ak Koyunlu, NEVER come CLOSE to capturing the area like they did in the map, but the cruel joke is that these areas (of Mesopotamia, and Persia) ARE NEVER inhabited at the time of their spawn! I really don't understand why the Ak Koyunlu never expand properly.

NEVER

Spoiler :

That's just my current test game with new Timurids (much easier, if that's what you guys wanted). AkK are programmed to do that, the AI can even flip those cities if they're in Barb hands, and I've seen Uzun Hassan becoming the Caliph quite a few times.

Kara Koyunlu are represented by named Barbarians. Their state was smaller and lasted for a shorter amount of time than their rival Ak Koyunlus who defeated them. As for the capital: "Ak Koyunlu Turkomans first acquired land in 1402, when Tamerlane granted them all of Diyarbakır, in present-day Turkey." Tabriz was the capital after 1468, and the AI moves it there if it captures it (which I've seen as well).

The h in Baghdad is English spelling, the Arabic transliteration is Bagdad.

 

[embryodead]

And I don't understand what you said about the Camels. Yes there are camel units, so why not have a camel resource? So basically in the same way that players need Horses to make cavalry units and ivory to make Elephant units, so should players be required to get camels to make camel units. Also obviously, the camel units, would give a certain bonus, probably just like ivory, it would be the Elephant of the Middle East per se

Camel units are rare mercenary units, unless you play with Yemen. It's simply a different game mechanic.

PS. Some civs are STILL respawning TOO quickly! Especially the Abbasids (actually perhaps ONLY the Abbasids). For example, they died in 1136AD and respawned in 1157AD! The Abbasids should NOT be respawning AT ALL! They never did, come back as a full frontal power, and I don't know why in this game, we have to continue to contend with them respawning, over and over again! Please stop them from respawning all the time!

In 1157 AD, Caliph al-Muqtafi successfully repelled the Seljuk siege of Baghdad, resulting in the Caliphate regaining real independence and military power (they regained Iraq). So, yes, that's exactly when they did come back, and it's not full frontal power, they come back with Iraq only. That's not over and over and all the time, and they don't respawn at all after the Mongol invasion.

 

[MessageMan]

Why are the Ottomans a Beylik?

 

[embryodead]

Why are the Ottomans a Beylik?

That's their vassal name, and also a not so good idea to have them start as Beylik and switch to Empire when they first switch civics. I'll switch it back though as they don't seem to do it reliably

 

[embryodead]

The proposed Timurid UU, throws explosives and leads a Trebuchet (unfortunately it's there all the time). Nevermind the flag.

 

[MessageMan]

The trebuchet is on a leash?

 

[embryodead]

The trebuchet is on a leash?

Lol no, it's just the rope & stone lying on the ground, always been that way.

 

[MessageMan]

There wasn't, that's why Turks and Mongols were so successful. Eventually Mamluk heavy cavalry defeated the Mongols, and here counter-attack with other cavalry, either heavy or light w/ skirmish promotion, is the best defense. That, and firearms.

But in the game if you build a horse archer it's only going to have a maximum of 40% withdrawal chance at the beginning which becomes even less when going against a stronger opponent. So it can't be used like the way it was back then since you're probably going to die instead of being able to retreat. You might as well just build lancers which will have strength 12.