The thread for space cadets!

The firefighters took it easy.

About space combat i think it would consist in using tiny drones/missiles which would impact target at huge distances and speed. No explosive needed, kinetic energy would make the job. Only defense would be to detect and destroy it in time, but since missile size would be pretty small it would be hard. Lasers would be a possibility too but combat ships could be protected in a number of ways from it. In any case space combat would be boring and stressful at the same time, with nothing to do most of the time but knowing you can be suddenly destroyed in an eye blink anytime.
 
@ Winner, if you read enough scifi, it's been done. Assuming the engine efficiencies you suggest, the ships may have a lot of deltaV in total, but they will have little deltaV at any point in time. That is, acceleration will max out at 1-6Gs. Anything more would be too hard on the crew, and probably too hard on the ship. The ships are going to be fragile. Fragile to the point that eggshells seem like steel plate in comparison. So your defense is not maneuverability, really.

Defensively, your weapons will be distance, stealth, decoys, deception, active point defense. That is, your best defense is to prevent the enemy from knowing precisely where you are. How successful that will be will depend on the specific tech choices made for the story.

There will be a continuous arms race between the capabilities of the offense and the capabilities of the defense. And which will be most effective at any point in time will be dependent on where along that arms race you happen to set your story. And which techs will matter will also depend on which assumption you use. Lasers, for example, may not be a very long range weapon, simply because even if you could focus your laser at that range, the power requirement may be prohibitive, and you may not be able to localize your target well enough to insure a hit.

Offensive weapons, nukes can be of 2 types, those sent unpowered, and guided missiles. Unpowered would be harder to stop, because they would be harder to see, but since they cannot adjust course, small course corrections could take the target out of range. Guided missiles will be more visible, and will have to use a variety of sensors to home in on the target. But those sensors are subject to fooling with countermeasures, and point defense will be an issue. Lasers, rail guns, those are other options. Simply bracketing a target with cannonballs would probably be lethal, and unstoppable. Chain shot would be used, depending on the design of the ships. Those chains would rip right through the eggshells at the velocities that would be common.

At this level of tech, your distances will probably be in the 1000s, 10,000s of miles, not greater than that.

Ship design, that's also going to change depending on your assumptions. At this level of tech, there's one proposal I don't recall the name of, but it essentially looks like a 3D model of a molecule.

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Which is a bunch of individual modules separated by tubes. The reason for this is so that the modules are redundancy, and losing a bunch of them does not destroy the whole ship. The other alternative most common would be a rocket with a bunch of fuel tanks strapped on. Your starting assumptions will determine which way you go.
 
@Cutlass - so basically future space warships are going to be Borg cubes/spheres? Awesomesauce!

On space combat:

The two things that pop into my mind are the why and the how. Winner brings up one part of a potential answer to the why question:
I agree. The reason I see for armed space combat vessels is to control lines of communication (although I know that very term is problematic in space)
Crowded communication bands in Earth orbit are getting to be problematic and have even resulted in some minor diplomatic rows. The issues with crowded bandwidths will go away once we become a truly spacefaring society as the distances involved will negate physical crowding and also because starships will likely use laser communication links (see the NASAs newest Lunar probe) which don't suffer from this problem.

Absent that, I don't see much reason to fight. Even if all the nations that develop deep-space capabilities remain or turn antagonistic, there are simply too many resources available in the solar system to fight over. With so many asteroids and planetary bodies at our disposal, I can't even see nations fighting over 'living space' or whatever. It just doesn't make much sense to me because by the time we ever reach a point where resources or living space become contentious, I would like to think we would have developed a more co-operative approach to space development.

Which brings me to my next point - I think that given the expense required in exploiting space that nations will be forced to co-operate. Even if eventually massive, interstellar companies are set up with fierce competition between them, I can't see them risking massive profit loss by engaging in armed conflict.


As to the how -

I think (and I could be wrong) that space combat will be virtually impossible except under vary limited circumstances. Space combat a la Star Trek tends to ignore orbital mechanics entirely. Given that they have essentially infinite amounts of deltaV and warp drives capable of zipping their ships to and fro, they can travel about largely ignoring things like orbits about the sun, planets and so on. Even when in interstellar space, they don't follow proper orbits about the galactic center, they just zip around directly from point A to B.

But real spaceships can't do this, even if they had access to advanced fusion drives. Their trajectories about the solar system will follow solar orbits that can't be easily, quickly or substantially changed mid-course. So if a ship were to spot another and want to engage it, it would have to jump over to a rendezvous orbit at fantastic expenditure of deltaV (if it's even possible) and then wait weeks or months for the encounter. The other ship would presumably see it coming and could alter it's own orbit accordingly to avoid the first ship. That kind of cat and mouse game would dominate space combat and unless one ship has vastly superior engines (unlikely) they are simply never going to meet unless both ships want to meet.

But suppose they do want to meet in combat - then what? I actually do think missiles would be viable. You could make a missile invisible to radar and also one that can absorb/deflect laser beams meant to track it. So when it launches, you could see it by it's exhaust plume, but after the initial burn, it only needs tiny maneuvering impulses to change its trajectory. Picking up those tiny impulses will be nearly impossible and in particular if a volley are launched - how will the opposing ship see them coming?

Also, ships themselves aren't going to be burning continuously as they fly about the solar system. Given that they will undoubtedly be smaller than asteroids, how would anyone detect them coming in the first place? I would think that simply tracking an enemy ship to engage it would be an enormously difficult problem. But then again I don't really know.

____________


I have a 'manifesto' of sorts that I can share with you if you wish. There's a kid in my degree cohort who has collected what he feels to be all the 'best' ideas when it comes to space warfare into an 80ish page book. It's very detailed and covers a lot of ground. He shares it freely on an internet forum (and copies that he emails on request) so there's no copyright issue if you want to read it.

I will warn you thought that at least in the 20 or so pages I have read that it's a lot of garbage. He does cover a lot, but he approaches it with a lot of invalid assumptions that he pulls out of thin air. For example, he describes a type of 'carrier' ship that could have drones attached to its hull but goes on to say there would be 'no way' of rearming/refueling said drones. I have no idea why he makes that assumption excepting of course lack of imagination. And he does that same kind of assumption-making throughout the work.

The kicker is that in the beginning of the book, he basically says that before you read it, you need to put aside your own assumptions on space warfare and if you don't agree with him then you are wrong. :lol:
 
Not cubes or spheres, no. They may be many small modules attached with tubes and struts. But not filled in between the modules. Most of the volume between the modules will be empty space.
 
Definitely, especially the notion that powerful drive systems can in fact be used as weapons...
I...I completely forgot about the Kzinti Lesson.:(

If I remember high school physics correctly, light (and I would assume anyform of EM wave) looses intensity the farther it gets from the source due to dispersion. Wouldn't that force lasers to be used as relatively short-range weaponry to prevent the loss of intensity and maintain killing power?
Similarly, space is BIG, and it does take time for light to travel between objects. Presumably, the best defense would be to take evasive actions as soon as an enemy ship is spotted to increase both distance between targets and increase likelihood to be where the enemy is not shooting. Wouldn't that then draw combat closer as ships would need to close distance to ensure they hit the enemy rather than perpetually missing?

Question: What is the level robotics/AI has reached in your universe? I could see space combat as being a lot more likely if it could be handled exclusively by robots. That would allow higher G maneuvers, cost savings for making the warships, and very long term deployment.
 
I...I completely forgot about the Kzinti Lesson.:(

If I remember high school physics correctly, light (and I would assume anyform of EM wave) looses intensity the farther it gets from the source due to dispersion. Wouldn't that force lasers to be used as relatively short-range weaponry to prevent the loss of intensity and maintain killing power?
Yo mean divergence i guess. How much a laser beam diverge depends of a number of factors like how the laser is built, the lens the frequence... But to have an idea, the lasers used to measure moon distance from Earth, which i suppose are built to have a the least divergence possible, has a beam width of 3-4 kilometers when it reaches moon which is about 400,000 km away. So making some basic cross multiplication i think a laser beam would remain reasonably focused an lethal the first 100s kilometres or so, no much more.
 
AI is a question not too much investigated is space warfare fiction. There's both the question of what it could do, and of what it could be trusted to do. Nobody wants an AI that's smart enough to choose not to fight. Nor one aggressive enough to attack it's own creators.
 
Oh, I know Atomic Rockets well, a great site. Although I don't necessarily agree with their conclusions.

What are your conclusions? I'd love to hear another take on the matter.

Also, ships themselves aren't going to be burning continuously as they fly about the solar system. Given that they will undoubtedly be smaller than asteroids, how would anyone detect them coming in the first place? I would think that simply tracking an enemy ship to engage it would be an enormously difficult problem. But then again I don't really know.

You assume the spaceship has the same temperature as a rock. But as you've got to keep crew and electronics alive, so the ship should show up in IR pretty well. Thanks to radiators etc
Hiding in the sun(think WW1&2 fighters) or behind planets would be the only option
 
I doubt that a spacecraft that is not burning its engines is going to emit enough radiation to stand out at distances on the scale of multiple AUs.
 
The thing with trying to predict what space combat might look like is that we don't have a bloody idea :lol: It's like a bunch of guys in 1890s trying to predict what air combat might look like in the 2000s. I am sure there were one or two visionaries who got the basic variables right, but the thousands of others were totally wrong (imagining huge flying fortresses and air cruisers and whatnot, their imagination clearly influenced by the experiences with naval war).

Now we're trying to imagine what war in space might look like based on our experiences with naval and air war. I am sure we're equally wrong - we can't even with any certainty say anything about the three main components of any war machine's power - mobility, armament, armour.

So it's all conjecture and guessing, and I am loathe to argue too much about it because personal (aesthetic) preference plays a huge role. Anyway, a few comments:


@ Cutlass:

When I said manoeuvrability, I meant evasion at extreme range. If you're hurling slugs of metals at each other separated by tens of thousands of kilometres of space, even with relatively low-g acceleration you can simply avoid most hits. This is of course entirely useless against speed-of-light lasers and near-speed-of-light particle beams.

In the end, perhaps the opposite will be the case and ships will simply be heavy behemoths with layers and layers of ablative armour, slugging it out with heavy beam weapons, kind of like the battleships of old.

As for your atomium-shaped ship, I don't really see the point. If the parts are redundant, why have them connected - you can have a swarm of smaller ships instead of one flimsy space-molecule.

@ hobbsyoyo:

Yes, mobility is a huge problem in "realistic" sci-fi. The way I see it, most "battles" will be fought near something of strategic value, not in deep space in the middle of nowhere (literally).

So, let's be cheesy. An American fleet is approaching the Chinese colony of Mars with the intent of capturing it for the American empire. What are the Chinese admiral's options?

-> He can lie at anchor at Deimos and wait until the Americans approach. They are the ones who need to make a burn to enter orbit around the planet. This will put them in range of the orbital defence installations and the huge planetoid fortress of Phobos, which will multiply the offensive force of the Chinese fleet.
-> On the other hand, they will get an opportunity to launch dropships to the surface and start dropping nukes on the surface installations. Even if they lose, they can cause an irreparable damage to the colony. Ergo, it might be preferable to burn and enter a very elliptical orbit around Mars and intercept the American fleet a few light-seconds away from the planet. But that carries a VERY significant risk. The two fleets will only fly past each other once; there won't be time to intercept it again before it reaches the planet. Thus, the Chinese must be sure they are strong enough to destroy or severely maul the American fleet in order for the remnants to be taken out by orbital defences. Losing the intercept battle (or more embarrassingly, failing to intercept the enemy fleet) means leaving the colony at the mercy of the victorious American fleet.
-> Worst of all, the Americans KNOW this and have probably planned accordingly for all eventualities.

As for detection, I think a combination of passive sensors, detecting the enemy ships' heat against the cold background of space, and active radar/lidars used for precision targeting will be used. The latter can of course be jammed, and the former "blinded". In essence, passive sensors in space need to be very sensitive to pick up the enemy millions of kilometres away - so why not, once you're close enough, flash them with infrared lasers and such to just burn their cameras? At the very least, it forces the enemy to close his "passive eyes", and rely on active—jammable—sensors. Sensor drones would of course be used heavily, I can imagine massive clouds of them reaching hundreds of thousands of kilometres in diameter deployed around the fleet of combat vessels. OTOH, speed of light comms delay means that further out, their utility in combat rapidly decreases.

A battle in space will be huge, huge mess. Non-stop jamming, drones and decoy targets everywhere, thousands of projectiles and anti-projectiles flying and colliding across the battlespace, lasers flashing, pure chaos. I love it :mischief:

(BTW, the codex entries in Mass Effect 1 concerning space combat were excellent. It of course suits the ME universe where fleets can always disengage by entering FTL, but it is a really decent source of inspiration for me. Too bad the next two sequels ignored it.)


@ Ajidica:

There are many problems with lasers. One is the loss of coherence over distance (unless you use something like X-ray lasers or similarly infernal devices), the other is getting rid of waste heat and managing the degradation of your projector devices (mirrors etc.). This is why I don't like them very much. In my sci-fi setting, they are still a weapon deployed by all the principal races, but more in a secondary role - for blinding the enemy sensors and picking out point defence guns beyond their range so that smaller attack fighters/bombers have a decent chance of success.

As for AI - as I said to Hobbs above, I believe a space battle will be extremely chaotic. Thousands of things happening at once, and happening fast. It is impossible for a human to manage without advanced AIs taking care of things like picking targets, sorting them, and assigning guns to fire at them. Humans would be there to make principal decisions and to prioritize, but the "trivialities" of the combat would be handled almost exclusively by computers. The fact that communications between ships would be less-than-reliable in an all out battle only makes the need for independent AIs more pressing.

And yeah, we should make sure these AIs do not have a penchant for producing hot humanoid androids and wiping out humanity ("because that's a man's job!") :mischief:

@ Michkov:

I was perhaps too general in that statement. I agree with most of their conclusions, but some seem too "authoritative" (meaning "authoritarian") for my taste. It's one thing to provide facts and calculations, another to say "and this makes this and that completely impossible, so forget it". While they might be right in many things, sometimes it's a bit too assertive. I won't give you specific examples now, because I read most of the things there years ago and don't remember exactly. I think the issue with "stealth in space" was one where I cringed. Sure, there is not "Stealth" as in "Romulan warbird" (aka "space submarine"), but there surely are ways to severely reduce your combat vessels signature and make it harder to spot if you don't know where to look.


(I apologize for the tons of typos and grammar mistakes I surely made in this post, but I am too lazy to proofread it)
 
Are you saying that we may still get those flying aircraft carriers?
 
Are you saying that we may still get those flying aircraft carriers?

The jury is still out concerning things like "fighters" in space.

Atomic Rockets uses to explain why it's fallacious to think of "fighters" in space in the same terms we think about aircrafts taking off from carriers here on Earth as follows:

the main difference is, that on earth, fighter planes launched from carriers move in a different medium than the ships that launched them, i.e. air as opposed to water, respectively. This is the main source of their advantage - the air resistance is far lesser, so they can move many many times faster. They can move far above the '2D' world of the ships and again use their '3D' nature to their advantage. Ships are, compared to airplanes, stationary targets that can be repeatedly attacked after which the attacking airplane rapidly retreats to safety.

In space, there is only one medium - vacuum. Small fighter-like spaceships launched from a bigger spaceship don't have any of the advantages of an Earth-based fighter plane; the medium and the 3D nature of space is the same.

To explain how this is different one should take a look at small attack craft in Earth navies. It has been tried to deploy a swarm of smaller, faster, more manoeuvrable ships to attack larger ships. In the period before WW1, people thought that smaller boats rapidly closing on the big-bun battleships and sinking them with torpedoes might be a viable strategy. In the end, the torpedo-boat destroyer (now known just as 'destroyer' and considered a major surface ship) was developed to 'screen' the big ships from exactly these types of attack, and the strategy was found not viable.
Right now, in this day and age, the Iranians and other rogue(ish) countries are developing small, very fast missile boats, again hoping to overwhelm and cause damage to large advanced fleets of their 1st world enemies. It remains to be seen whether that can work or not - my guess is it won't, except under very specific circumstances. Furthermore, these smaller ships don't handle open seas well and their endurance is limited, so it's not practical to use them anywhere but very close to the shore.

So, here you go. In space, your fighters are not real fighters, but more like little speedboats or torpedo-boats. They are small, their armour is weak, their endurance is limited, so what is their advantage, really? You need to come up with some serious advantage that makes them worth the trouble.

The advantages I can see:
— manoeuvrability (i.e. ability to get closer to the enemy fleet and not be hit, since the chance to hit a target is a function of the speed of the projectile and the ability of the target ship to dodge the projectile.)
— multiple attack vectors (i.e. you can swarm the enemy fleet from more than one direction simultaneously. Combined with a large number of missiles and decoys to saturate the enemy point defences, this can open a crack in the fleets defence zone for a strike force to get close and score hits with 'torpedoes' - heavy, ship-killing missiles).
— precision attacks (if the fighter/bombers get close enough and use their lighter weapons to accurately attack enemy ships' guns, point defences, missile ports, engines, etc., they can soften it up for the main battle fleet.)

In any case, I wouldn't want to be a pilot in these things, because the casualties to point-defence fire would be HORRENDOUS. I think it would be common for the fighter force to lose over 50% of their strength in just one attack. I guess for this reason, most of the ships would be automated and piloted by AIs, with perhaps a few of 'squadron leader' fighters piloted by humans to direct the unmanned vehicles.
 
There are many problems with lasers. One is the loss of coherence over distance (unless you use something like X-ray lasers or similarly infernal devices), the other is getting rid of waste heat and managing the degradation of your projector devices (mirrors etc.). This is why I don't like them very much. In my sci-fi setting, they are still a weapon deployed by all the principal races, but more in a secondary role - for blinding the enemy sensors and picking out point defence guns beyond their range so that smaller attack fighters/bombers have a decent chance of success.

Why should coherence loss be a problem? There is little coherence involved in doing damage with a laser. What is a problem is that every laser beam has a small divergence that leads to a large spot at long distance. So you have to work with large beam diameters and high intensities.

The biggest problem is that spaceships are usually from aluminum, which has a high reflectance for light. After a bit of polishing (and any combat involving lasers will involve very shiny combatants sooner or later) most of the laser light is simply reflected without doing damage. It is also a very good heat conductor, so doing thermal damage is extra difficult.

I don't think lasers are particularly useful for blinding sensors. The sensors are usually broadband and (cw) laser light is very narrowband light. So you just put a tunable filter in front of your sensor and you can still use it. In the visible and near infrared spectrum you could try to broaden your spectrum by using femtosecond pulses, but in the mid-infrared this is going to be difficult.

And I don't think there is such a thing as a maximum range for point defense guns in space (unless you are shooting out of a gravity well and your projectiles are below escape velocity). The maximum range will be determined by how far away the other spaceship can comfortably dodge the salvo.
 
So I saw Gravity the other day.

I really enjoyed it, despite some of the real stretches in plausibility (ISS isn't near the Hubble's orbit, and it's beyond credibility to think that the ISS and the Chinese station are only separated by 100km in the same orbit. And the whole thing about neither of them being shredded in the first volley of shrapnel...?

But I loved the way I really was tricked into thinking that they were in orbit. The CGI detailing of cables, tears, changing lighting angles - I think it really worked and I'll be shocked if the cinemtography isn't nominated for an Academy Award.

Here's a teaser about the filming:

Link to video.

EDIT: I can't compare this against any other recent space movies - the last movie I saw in the theater was Prometheus. Which, as we all know, was a joke in technical terms and in plot line. For reference, check out the HonestTrailers take on it ;)
 
Okay, I'll pop in and just say that while I thoroughly enjoyed Gravity, I thought it was basically a remake of the second half of the first half of "Mission to Mars." That said, damned good acting all around and great visuals and just a great movie to watch. Ignore the implausible stuff and enjoy the flick :)
 
So I saw Gravity the other day.

<snip>

EDIT: I can't compare this against any other recent space movies - the last movie I saw in the theater was Prometheus. Which, as we all know, was a joke in technical terms and in plot line. For reference, check out the HonestTrailers take on it

So, at what stage are they going to start making space movies in space?
 
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