The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Estebonrober]

What appeal to lawlessness are you referring to?

Refusing to comply with confiscation laws is illegal. If you beat your girlfriend half to death and a judge orders your firearms removed as a law abiding citizen you should comply and the argument against the law itself should not be that some people choose to ignore the order.

 

[IglooDame]

So regulate all AR 15s and such to be hot pink or baby blue with extra femininity built into them? I like it.

Likewise. But I may be a bit of an edge case, gunowner-wise.

 

[Estebonrober]

The deaths that have resulted from the enforcement of red flag laws haven't been from open defiance, it's been from poor police tactics. They try to conduct these confiscations like they are serving high risk warrants to some hardened drug lord by showing up in the middle of the night and busting the door down. The resident, assuming it's an intruder, grabs their gun and proceeds to defend themselves from what they believe to be home Invaders because the officers aren't identifying themselves as police.

And like I said, good number of those have been instances where the police weren't even at the correct address.

So that point I made was more a criticism of police competence and tactics rather than an appeal to lawlessness.

Sounds like good grounds to review police tactics and training. Again I'm with you that I think it violates the constitution but that will have to be litigated. In the meantime maybe better policing, honestly these tactics sound eerily similar to drug busts in urban areas where black Americans are subject to this kind of thing frequently, I wonder what your hot take on those incidents are? That is off topic though or only tangentially on topic.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Since the topic has already been raised I have a question for you americans. Lately I've been stuck indoors (guess why) and have been watching a lot of the crime channel. And the one thing that I keep seeing over and over again both in the police body cam shows and the ones where it's all acting is american police officers approaching literally every situation with guns drawn. Like literally anything from a traffic stop to a domestic disturbance to trying to arrest someone the gun comes out first and gets pointed at who ever they want to talk to.

My question is is this really the procedure your police use? Like do they really draw their guns like that all the time and just point them at people? Because to me that sounds and looks terrifying. Or are they just being dramatic?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The typical traffic stop does not involve the cop drawing their gun on you.

Maybe if you're white

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Mostly dramatic. The typical traffic stop does not involve the cop drawing their gun on you. Now if you led them on a high speed chase for a few miles before you decided to pull over or you start acting in a hostile manner during the stop, then yeah you are going to get a gun drawn on you.

EDIT: The problem with our policing doesn't come with the typical day-to-day stuff, it comes when the cops do find themselves in those high stress situations. They don't seem to handle it very well and tend to overreact with predictably bad results (i.e. someone getting shot when they could have just been arrested).

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I am aware of the fact these aren't routine traffic stops over a broken headlight or something. But they are still NOT even remotely life or death situations for the police officer. And yet a firearm is produced newer the less.

Are you saying that this is normal? That is to say that it is normal for a police officer to produce a firearm even though there is no clear and present life threatening danger to him self or others?

 

[Zardnaar]

Cops here don't even carry guns outside of emergencies such as Mosque shooting.

 

[Bugfatty300]

what have they done to the grip on that AR

I hope it's just a photoshop error

It's a "thumbhole stock" to make it California legal.

 

[IglooDame]

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I am aware of the fact these aren't routine traffic stops over a broken headlight or something. But they are still NOT even remotely life or death situations for the police officer. And yet a firearm is produced newer the less.

Are you saying that this is normal? That is to say that it is normal for a police officer to produce a firearm even though there is no clear and present life threatening danger to him self or others?

No, it's not normal. But it likely happens at a greater rate than you'd approve of, for two reasons. One is, yes there's just a slightly lower threshold than "clear and present danger". The other is, most people would be surprised at how quickly a situation can go to hell compared to how long it takes to draw a firearm. Having participated in competitions doing exactly that (speed draws, not making situations go to hell), I can say it takes considerable practice to make it fast and automatic and the vast majority of police don't practice it at all.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Police have shot people even in non threatening situations, usually PoCs

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I guess I am just deeply freaked out by the idea of:
1. The police officer drawing a firearm against an unarmed person. WTH?
2. The police officer drawing a firearm when someone is shoving, shouting or otherwise being harmlessly physical.
3. The way your police generally act as if they were in a western.
4. In general the way they seem to be all too happy and eager to physically subdue people even without provocation. It's like they are an occupying army and their primary priority is to take physical control. Where as that is something that should be done sparingly.

Like, if my local police started acting like that I'd literally change countries.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's insane, if a cop wants to shoot you you're pretty much gone

 

[Zardnaar]

Here the cops shooting you is Uber rare.
They caught the Mosque shooter alive from a car without shooting him. Wouldn't have minded if they had but the paperwork/investigation is a pain. .

 

[IglooDame]

I guess I am just deeply freaked out by the idea of:
1. The police officer drawing a firearm against an unarmed person. WTH?
2. The police officer drawing a firearm when someone is shoving, shouting or otherwise being harmlessly physical.
3. The way your police generally act as if they were in a western.
4. In general the way they seem to be all too happy and eager to physically subdue people even without provocation. It's like they are an occupying army and their primary priority is to take physical control. Where as that is something that should be done sparingly.

Like, if my local police started acting like that I'd literally change countries.

1 - The person may have concealed weapons.
2 - If a police officer gets into a physical fight 1-on-1, they've lost control of the situation.
4 - I don't know about happy, but, they see it as their job. Yes, we do largely have a mindset problem with our police nowadays.

 

[EgonSpengler]

4. In general the way they seem to be all too happy and eager to physically subdue people even without provocation. It's like they are an occupying army and their primary priority is to take physical control. Where as that is something that should be done sparingly.

4 - I don't know about happy, but, they see it as their job. Yes, we do largely have a mindset problem with our police nowadays.

There's a structural problem that's much bigger than any individual. That's why we see those "Pattern & Practice" investigations by the Justice Dept under the last administration, in addition to criminal investigations of specific officers. And some are definitely happy about it, such as the guys who put The Punisher's iconic skull logo on their cars. (The Punisher is a Marvel Comics vigilante, a former Green Beret who gets to work killing criminals in a self-declared war because the police are corrupt and incompetent - a hyper-violent Batman, if you will. I'm not sure whether someone who'd put The Punisher's logo on his patrol car in the first place would have a keen sense of irony, but you never know.) It's a lot like how the Catholic Church accumulated pedophiles over time; police departments accumulate violent psychopaths merely by not systematically drumming them out. And, back on topic, I believe there's a correlation between US states with looser gun laws and shootings both of and by police officers. The aforementioned Punisher fans were in Kentucky. I haven't looked up Kentucky gun laws or shooting stats; I wonder what I might find..?

 

[IglooDame]

There's a structural problem that's much bigger than any individual. That's why we see those "Pattern & Practice" investigations by the Justice Dept under the last administration, in addition to criminal investigations of specific officers. And some are definitely happy about it, such as the guys who put The Punisher's iconic skull logo on their cars. (The Punisher is a Marvel Comics vigilante, a former Green Beret who gets to work killing criminals in a self-declared war because the police are corrupt and incompetent - a hyper-violent Batman, if you will. I'm not sure whether someone who'd put The Punisher's logo on his patrol car in the first place would have a keen sense of irony, but you never know.) It's a lot like how the Catholic Church accumulated pedophiles over time; police departments accumulate violent psychopaths merely by not systematically drumming them out. And, back on topic, I believe there's a correlation between US states with looser gun laws and shootings both of and by police officers. The aforementioned Punisher fans were in Kentucky. I haven't looked up Kentucky gun laws or shooting stats; I wonder what I might find..?

My own sense is that police are largely immunized to the severity of gun laws - they're carrying guns legally, no matter what, and aren't "more careful" just because public carry is more illegal.

That said, I tried to find some evidence for or against your correlation, and the below link is a list of a sort of 'mass shooting' (in that multiple officers opened fire); many are from NYC and LA, but there could be a correlation with just having a higher density of officers locally responding to an incident before opening fire.

And in many cases the deaths of suspects - er, victims - is not by bullet wound, but the victim is still dead. I'm going to sound like a one-trick pony here, but while the tool is of significance, the police mindset toward "suspects" is the root issue.

Edit: forgot the link, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting#Examples

 

[EgonSpengler]

My own sense is that police are largely immunized to the severity of gun laws - they're carrying guns legally, no matter what, and aren't "more careful" just because public carry is more illegal.

That said, I tried to find some evidence for or against your correlation, and the below link is a list of a sort of 'mass shooting' (in that multiple officers opened fire); many are from NYC and LA, but there could be a correlation with just having a higher density of officers locally responding to an incident before opening fire.

And in many cases the deaths of suspects - er, victims - is not by bullet wound, but the victim is still dead. I'm going to sound like a one-trick pony here, but while the tool is of significance, the police mindset toward "suspects" is the root issue.

Edit: forgot the link, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting#Examples

If you mean psychologically immunized, then that may be. And I agree that the mindset towards 'suspects' is key. I remember reading an interview with an officer who'd spent a year or two working the overnight shift in a neighborhood that had a lot of crime, and when he moved to a day shift, he said he'd never realized there were families living there. I guess he just saw the whole neighborhood as being like Escape from New York or something, and never thought about it. Simply seeing the area during the day completely changed his perspective. One wonders if he ever fired at a suspect, missed, and then tried to figure out where his off-target rounds went.

Regarding the possible correlation between gun laws and police shootings, I find several references to the same study: ABC News, 13 Oct 18, "Fatal police shootings 40% more likely in states with higher gun ownership." So that's ownership, not laws. I also could've sworn I saw something about shootings of police, in addition to shootings by police, but I didn't find it with a quick Google search.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Regarding the possible correlation between gun laws and police shootings, I find several references to the same study: ABC News, 13 Oct 18, "Fatal police shootings 40% more likely in states with higher gun ownership." So that's ownership, not laws. I also could've sworn I saw something about shootings of police, in addition to shootings by police, but I didn't find it with a quick Google search.

Don't see a link to the actual study in that article but off the bat it's interesting that the article doesn't even mention race.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/states

 

[Farm Boy]

It's also easy to forget how much absolutely messed stuff is routine and handled in a way that nobody gets upset. Patrol officers are fairly regularly out of medical leave after being hurt in an altercation that they didn't hurt anyone in. A guy broke an officer's nose around here a little bit back over getting caught stealing somebody's cell phone. Guy didn't even get tazed. Did wind up incarcerated. Didn't wind up on the news. All sorts of junk like that. Thrown backs, sprained joints. Every now and then I read a knee-jerk about why the officers aren't cycled out to be younger instead of aging so they get hurt less, but then we'd have even more dangerous *******s on patrol. They tend to mellow and self-reflect more as they age, like everyone. Young adults really are the preponderance of certain types of massive asshat.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It's also easy to forget how much absolutely messed stuff is routine and handled in a way that nobody gets upset. Patrol officers are fairly regularly out of medical leave after being hurt in an altercation that they didn't hurt anyone in. A guy broke an officer's nose around here a little bit back over getting caught stealing somebody's cell phone. Guy didn't even get tazed. Did wind up incarcerated. Didn't wind up on the news. All sorts of junk like that. Thrown backs, sprained joints. Every now and then I read a knee-jerk about why the officers aren't cycled out to be younger instead of aging so they get hurt less, but then we'd have even more dangerous *******s on patrol. They tend to mellow and self-reflect more as they age, like everyone. Young adults really are the preponderance of certain types of massive asshat.

Right, I've seen police officers handle situations without violence, which I guess proves it can be done. Many years ago, I was on a city bus and the driver and a passenger had some sort of disagreement. I don't know what started it, but the passenger refused to get off the bus, so the driver pulled over and called the cops. Two officers came aboard the bus, both of them young, white guys. The obstinate passenger was an older black man, and I was thinking "Uh-oh." The two officers waited for their sergeant to arrive, who happened to also be a middle-aged black guy. The sergeant sat down and talked to the passenger for a minute, and then the two of them got up and got off the bus together. The end. Didn't even put the guy in cuffs.