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The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Lemon Merchant, Apr 2, 2018.

  1. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    No, I'm saying people are choosing the tools at hand when they're already miserable enough decide to kill themselves rather than live. That's upstream from worrying about the efficacy of the tools they have on hand. Which is then the lethality you're on downstream. Regional and cultural differences probably apply. Social poverty is not necessarily monetary poverty. But tracking the thing against where it is and isn't, eh.
     
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  2. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I haven't looked at what qualifies as a "good" or "bad" gun law, according to the people who assembled that map. Do "better" gun laws , by their reckoning, mean that it's harder to get a gun if you want one? Looking at the numbers here, my sense is no. If it did, that would mean fewer Nevadans want a gun than Minnesotans, and fewer Louisianans want one than Hawaiians, which would certainly shatter the impression that I have about which parts of the country have a culture and tradition of gun ownership. I don't think of Hawaiians as gun enthusiasts barely restrained by burdensome laws. But otoh, I don't know if I've ever known a Hawaiian personally. I'm pretty much just going by the celebrities and media stereotypes, which we know are always 100% accurate. :lol:
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    I'm reminded of that anytime I encounter law enforcement... and other times as well.

    So yes I do agree that the sources of misery that lead to suicide, and things like social poverty are much more important and relevant and focus-worthy than the tools people use to commit suicide. Dare I say that people might go as far as to march and protest and stuff like that to address some of those social poverty issues. But yeah, if we can reduce the misery in the first place, then people will be less likely to off themselves... guns or no guns. But this is the Gun Control Thread, so we are discussing the guns.

    But sure maybe that's part of the answer to what's going on in Maine versus Montana... maybe people in Maine are just much happier than the folks in Montana, so the lax gun laws in Maine don't matter as much. Maybe the people in Minnesota just have a much better quality of life than the people in Nevada, so they don't kill each other as much regardless of the similar rates of gun ownership.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
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  4. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    I think you have it reversed here. My sense is that yes, the states with the better grades would be the states with more regulations and obstacles to obtaining guns, ammo, accessories etc., and maybe bans on certain guns or types of guns, maybe even harsher penalties for gun-related crimes and so on. So if Nevada has a "F", that means that more Nevadans want guns, not fewer, so they keep their gun restrictions relatively lax.

    I guess I could go look and actually see how they are grading the states and what criteria they are using, but I don't feel like it :p... plus its a Gabby Giffords website, so it seems obvious that they are in favor of more restrictions on people being able to obtain firearms.
     
  5. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    No, if guns are easier to get in one state than in another, but the ownership rates are comparable, that'd mean the people who live in states with the more permissive laws are less likely to avail themselves of the opportunity. I have no quick hypothesis as to why this would be so. It could be... (a) My sense about which states have gun cultures is all wrong, and in fact, Nevadans aren't more likely to want a gun than Minnesotans. (b) These ownership numbers include illegally-owned guns. (c) The gun laws judged to be "good" aren't necessarily more restrictive about who can get a gun, but rather restrict the types of guns you can buy, or impose a waiting period, or restrict the accessories you can buy, or something like that. (d) Some combination of the above.
     
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  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

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    First off, comparing gun laws state to state is totally unrealistic. Every time someone says "look how the gun laws in state X aren't working" the answer is "look at this adjacent state that has laws that encourage pumping guns across the border."

    Second, while it is all well and good for the "poverty is the root of all despair" crowd to try to co-opt suicide rates into their arguments I don't believe they know what they are talking about.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    OK I understand now. Thanks for that explanation. I don't have an answer either. I'll have to think about it some.
     
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  8. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    I meant to type this months ago, but better late than never.

    I have complicated views on guns.

    On one hand, it's clear that America has a toxic gun culture which leads to more murders, more mass shootings, more accidental shootings, and more suicides than it otherwise would, and by a large margin. In many cases this gun culture becomes a gun cult, a fanatical obsession with firearms at the expense of public safety.

    On the other hand, the genie is out of the bottle. We can't eliminate the gun culture that has metastatized here. Its roots are too deep. Too many of its proponents would become too violent, and there are too many guns to eliminate. Too many voters care about guns above all other issues.

    And just as importantly, the violent cult of American conservatism won't be deterred by pleas or laws. American conservatism has steadily grown more radical until, by now, conservatives hate their opponents so intensely that they'd either celebrate if someone killed them, or they'd do it themselves. The police are firmly a part of the conservative cult and show this through favoritism and violence; they cannot in any way be trusted to protect people from massacres by right-wing militias that have spread across the country. The conservative political machine is firmly in favor of violence; William Barr, Trump, and others celebrated Kyle Rittenhouse's murders, and Trump declared that the killing of a man who shot a "Patriot Prayer" member at a rally was not defense, but "retribution." The conservative media machine celebrated Rittenhouse as a hero and a saint. Right-wing violence, over the course of about a decade, has gone from largely the fringe of conservatism to its defining essence.

    This means that a huge portion of the population, backed by the Justice Department, the White House, a massive media machine, a majority of Senators, and most if not all police departments either accept or encourage violence against their political opponents as a legitimate tool. Peaceful transfers of power will become a thing of the past before long.

    Even if Trump inexplicably loses, he'll do everything in his power to contest the election. Police departments, militias, a media machine, most Senators, and most importantly, tens of millions of Americans will likely back him. Right-wing militias will rally and threaten opponents and rule of law with the approval and support of police departments. Even if Biden inexplicably takes the oath of office, the stage is set for a massive armed insurgency composed of people convinced that the country is rightfully theirs and was stolen from them. This insurgency will target known or assumed opponents of conservatism for intimidation and murder.

    To that end, we need some immediate changes.

    First, the Democratic Party must immediately drop its "anti-gun" stances, real or perceived. Assault weapon bans and other restrictions achieve nothing at all but earning the enmity of single-issue gun voters. Many of them would likely not vote for a Republican if they believed their gun ownership wouldn't be restricted by Democrats. It's too much to say that this would swing elections in Democrats' favor, but every bit helps. And people in favor of gun control probably won't sit out an election because of this.

    Second, there's an urgent need for a nationwide civic organization dedicated to armed defense against right-wing terrorist attacks, as the police will never accept this task. As is, the American left, liberals, and minorities are practically defenseless against right-wing terrorism. Members of this organization would train together in shooting, drill, communications, first aid, and more, preferably with the help of ex-military members. It wouldn't be intended to overthrow any government; just for community defense. There's little new about this; America's many militias have been doing this for decades. It's entirely legal and very widespread. What's different is that it would mark the recognition of the new American political reality where the police openly side with violent extremists and can't be relied upon to defend us. And since the police won't protect us, we are now defenseless, unless we choose to defend ourselves. Organization without armament falls apart the moment violence is used against it. Armament without organization leads to a million scared people clutching guns, alone, at home, too scattered, confused, and untrained to know what's happening or what to do.

    The radical option now isn't mass armament; it's mass complacency at a time where we know what the threats are, that they're growing daily, and that the old defenses, checks, and balances have all failed.

    I never wanted the whole country to be frightened, angry, and armed in a permanent Mexican standoff. But it's extremely obvious by now that the alternative is for the whole country to be ruled by a brazenly violent and oppressive minority with nothing to lose and nothing to fear.
     
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  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I heavily agree with this tbh.
     
  10. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    It's a real shame that it's gotten to this point. I would say that universal armament would end any chance of fixing America's gun problem, but that ship sailed decades ago.
     
  11. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    Bringing this over from another thread: Would you have any tips or know of good resources for people in the US interested in getting started on their first firearm?
     
  12. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    That's a bit of a broad question, I could probably write ten paragraphs answering varieties of newbie stuff without a more solid direction. Do you want tips for buying? Safe ownership, best practices? Get started on shooting/training/drills?

    I couldn't link you to just one place since I've pieced together my knowledge from many, plus real life direction and guidance. Also a lot of resource guides will include some absolute hogwash I don't want to carefully read every resource to point out these bad practices specifically.
     
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  13. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    We're on the same wavelength!

    I'd say buying, safe use, safe storage, and maintenance would be the most important aspects to start with. I have ideas for rifles and no interest in handguns (other than 17th century wheellock horse pistols but anyway), so that would be a good starting point.
     
  14. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    All right, for buying pretty much any selection will get the job done if we're talking basic AR-15 style rifles or other semi-automatics. The caveat emptor is to make sure the company/manufacturer is still around and will still service your rifle if it has any problems, or you'll turn a $400 bargain find into an $800 regret because you'll need to take it to a gunsmith if anything goes wrong. Safe use seems easy enough, but ultimately comes down to a lot of memorization, including muscle memory. Bad habits will result in a problem, if not now, then later. For basic safety and operation, these are the golden rules, as short and sweet as possible.
    • Always treat the gun as loaded.
    • Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
    • Always keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
    • Always keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
    • Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy.
    • Be sure of your target and be aware of what's behind it.
    If your gun has a safety, use it, but do not ever rely on it. The best safety is your mind.

    Safe storage - depends on the environment you want to store it in and your reason for owning the gun. A locked gun safe is obviously the safest solution. It's also the most expensive and impractical if you actually need to access your gun. As I live alone, with no children or children visitors, ever, I keep one of my guns accessible at all times. If you have children at home, under no circumstances should you follow this example. However you store it, you'll probably be wanting a carry bag or briefcase for trips to the range or alternative storage. These will come in various lengths - I would choose one that is slightly larger than your gun, for ease of use.

    Maintenance - needs may vary depending on what rifle you have, but generally it's very simple. You can buy all-in-one cleaning kits with cotton patches that you spray with gun cleaning solution, to scrub away all the lead fouling and carbon buildup. You stick these patches at the end of a rod and ram it through the barrel, and the tight fit (make sure the cleaning kit works for your gun caliber/length) should ensure good coverage/cleaning throughout. Run it through as many times as necessary, then grab a dry patch and run that through to absorb the moisture. Next, the same thing again, but with gun lubricant to ensure smooth operation. For any clarification or further instruction, see your specific firearm manual, which will also tell you how to disassemble (field strip) your gun if necessary. Depending on your gun, it may be good practice to do so occasionally.

    You don't have to clean the gun every single time you shoot it, but if you're going to put it away for a while (like, a month or more) you probably should do so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  15. Spidernova

    Spidernova Warlord

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    The last few times I've been to the range there have been an absurd number of new people, a lot of who don't have the faintest idea of trigger or muzzle discipline.

    Take into account the cost of and availability of ammo when selecting a gun, especially right now. Where I live, 2.23/5.56 and .308 are completely sold out, but all the "hunting" calibers like .243 and 6.5 creedmoore are still on shelves. Might not be a bad time to get an AR-10. 7.62x39 is still pretty available too, so if you can find one for a decent price, the SKS is an option.
    Disclaimer- I don't actually own any semis, just a couple revolvers and a boltgun, so take that with a grain of salt.
    If you trust youtubers, Paul Harrell is a decent resource for the more practical side. He does focus on handguns, but his rifle videos are pretty good too.
     
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  16. Glassfan

    Glassfan Mostly harmless

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    I've been spending my Sundays driving around to the four local gunshops to buy the one box limit of 45APC at each so I have enough to go to the range. This is temporary - it happened in 2016 when we thought Hilary would win.
     
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  17. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy We'll dig up the road!

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    Comparing state wide suicide rates to state laws may be useful, but I'm noticing suicide rates are more urban/rural divide than decided by state lines.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/dPA4HEHiFkMiEmtk7



    State lines are pronounced separating suicide rates in southern California from Arizona/Nevada. But literally, no where else (Edit: Ok, Idaho separated from WA and OR, too). But look at Northern California.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2020
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  18. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    Man, these kids getting suspended for having toy/bb guns during online classrooms...

    I think it's only a matter of time before some school SWATs a student with an airsoft toy and the family is massacred as a result.
     
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  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Careful there. The state lines/gunz is the political argument they want to have. Pointing out how the game is rigged by looking at the results is... inconvenient. Maybe even an indicator of some bloodlusty conservative that can only be dealt with by creating more armed response organizations. :lol:
     
  20. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Rest in Peace Black Panther

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    Looks like the NYC Tri-state area is the "happiest place on earth" :D

    No time to kill yourself when you're always stuck in traffic I guess:p
     
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