The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

It may be arguing semantics, but arguing semantics is very important when it comes to this issue. This is because of the image that is conjured up in the average person's mind when you use the term "gun violence". That image being one of people intentionally shooting other people for malicious reasons. So by lumping all deaths caused by firearms under the category of "gun violence" it makes the problem of criminal activity involving firearms (the image that makes people think we need more gun regulation) seem much worse than it actually is.
It's certainly true that many (most?) people think crime is worse than it is, and that it's worse than it used to be. I don't have the inclination to Google it right now, but I'm pretty sure that violent crime rates are way down from, say, the '70s & '80s.

It also confuses more than just the gun issue. If you lump suicide-by-gun deaths into gun violence statistics in order to push for more gun regulation, you take attention away from the real issue of suicide prevention. Increased gun regulation isn't going to stop people from killing themselves. If someone wants to die, they are going to do it so we should be focusing on finding ways to make them not want to die rather than trying to limit the ways in which they can kill themselves.
I definitely agree that helping people who are at risk of suicide, and who have mental health concerns more generally, should be a bigger priority than it is, but the part here that I bolded is incorrect. Correlations have been found between gun ownership rates and suicide rates, and between looser gun laws and suicide rates. Of course "correlation is not causation", but it seems unlikely to me that people who own guns also happen to be innately more suicidal. Also, most people who survive a suicide attempt don't try again (that number is overwhelming, btw - 70% is the lowest estimate I've seen, up to 90%). Guns and suicides appear to be inextricably linked. And while I keep talking about deaths, nonfatal gunshot wounds can be life-wrecking. That girl who just had that full-face transplant is, iirc, a suicide survivor.

And no one really disagrees with that. All we disagree on is what should be done. Obviously I do not believe "take the guns" is the correct answer.
Yeah, I'm not sure it is, either. I wonder how practical it is, for starters. But I also just don't like the idea of stormtroopers forcing people's doors in because of what they might do. That's how Fred Hampton was essentially executed by Chicago P.D. in 1969.
 
so this is the thread to discuss the media's effect on providing the preferred venue for a narcissist's rage, @Arakhor ?
If it's going to involve gun violence or gun control, then yes.
 
We could use this new gun control thread to argue semantics!
This ^ is post#3 of this thread... LMAO:lol:
Well, that sounds like arguing semantics to me. The issue is deaths and injuries from firearms. If there's a better term or phrase, I guess it doesn't matter to me ...
Spoiler The highlights of the semantics argument :
Again, it seems like you're playing semantic games, which doesn't really interest me. "Preventable deaths by firearms" seems a little unwieldy.
dis·ease dəˈzēz/ noun noun: disease; plural noun: diseases; noun: dis-ease; plural noun: dis-eases
  1. a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.
OK geez... I amend my statement to "illegal immigrants" versus "gun-users" :p
This thread is fast becoming a dictionary for terms no-one is actually confused about.
All I'm saying is that the word "violent" has multiple definitions... This seems to be Semantics: The Thread.
The whole thing generally just devolves into the "technicals" block-citing definitions of words and such, while the "practicals" accuse them of engaging in semantics and pedantry.
No. "Violence" doesn't have one single definition and I'm sure you know this. It has multiple definitions depending in which sense it is used.
I think the relevant one for "gun violence" should be the WHO definition used in this report.
It may be arguing semantics, but arguing semantics is very important when it comes to this issue.
Again... I tip my hat to you @Timsup2nothin for calling this so accurately so early. :hatsoff:
 
I'm somewhat of an Anti-Semantic Myself.:smug:
 
I can get clever with your quote too, and then claim you're just being all semantical when you challenge my take on "yield." :mischief:
 
I wouldn't turn down a cuddle from yours.
 
Spoiler Finally found it, that took a while :
 
I know... and I KNOW!

Sheesh... everyone is so serious today :)

As an aside @Farm Boy 's avatar is a sexy mamahjamah

I wouldn't turn down a cuddle from yours.
I've been waiting for this moment.

Spoiler :
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I responded by simply asking if you would extend your own reasoning to the illegal immigration problem.

Which is a diversion that isn't relevant to the topic being discussed.

Furthermore, I did not say you "think illegal immigration is a major problem".

You didn't have to say it. The fact that you asked the question in the first place in a thread that has nothing to do with immigration shows that you assumed that I held a certain view regarding illegal immigration.

The reason you won't answer and are trying to characterize it as "irrelevant" is obvious.

Yeah, that reason being that your question is irrelevant.

Now you're attacking my freedom of speech too?

I am not Congress so I have no obligation to respect your right to free speech.

It turns out the guy had been hospitalized in a psychiatric unit at least twice and had a long history of mental illness.

Yet he was still able to legally purchase firearms.

Blame HIPAA for that. If you want medical information to be included in the background checks for firearm purchases, then you are going to have to give up some of your medical privacy by adding law enforcement to the list of people that can access your medical history. The 4473 form does ask if you have ever been adjudicated as "mentally defective" or committed to a mental institution, but those can only be verified if you were diagnosed or committed through the courts. If you are just diagnosed by a doctor or committed without the courts getting involved though, then HIPAA kicks in and the FBI won't be able to access those records to verify whether or not you answered that question truthfully.

Guns and suicides appear to be inextricably linked.

I think that might have something to do with the popular perception that a gun provides a relatively easy and painless way for one to commit suicide.
 
I think that might have something to do with the popular perception that a gun provides a relatively easy and painless way for one to commit suicide.
Yes, I think that's probably true. Here's a chart from the Harvard School of Public Health, "Lethality of Suicide Methods: Case Fatality Rates by Suicide Method, 8 U.S. States, 1989-1997" There's a lot we don't get from so simple a chart, but it does reaffirm the fairly-intuitive sense that guns are effective weapons. I imagine a chart of lethality rates by weapon used in homicides would also have guns at the top.

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Yes, I think that's probably true. Here's a chart from the Harvard School of Public Health, "Lethality of Suicide Methods: Case Fatality Rates by Suicide Method, 8 U.S. States, 1989-1997" There's a lot we don't get from so simple a chart, but it does reaffirm the fairly-intuitive sense that guns are effective weapons. I imagine a chart of lethality rates by weapon used in homicides would also have guns at the top.

CaseFatality7-1024x561.jpg
That is a realy interesting if slightly disturbing graph. I am amazed that drugs have such a low success rate, and that vehicles are not even on it.
 
That is a realy interesting if slightly disturbing graph. I am amazed that drugs have such a low success rate, and that vehicles are not even on it.
There is an "other" category with 8%??? WTH:confused: That must means the methods are so varied and divers that they account for 8% together but no one method was common enough to be 1% by itself.

People are freaking creative... Although I'm disappointed that "seppuku/harikari" didn't make the list. Guess nobody feels shame anymore... Or maybe its included in the "cut/pierce" category?
 
There is an "other" category with 8%??? WTH:confused: That must means the methods are so varied and divers that they account for 8% together but no one method was common enough to be 1% by itself.

Not quite. The graph is for success rate, not frequency. Presumably the methods shown are the most common methods, regardless of their success rate. In other words, the less common methods likely have highly variable success rates, many or most of them are likely over 1% success rate since the average is 8%. Maybe a certain method was tried only once and worked for example. But when you average the success rate of all suicides that do not fit into one of the other categories together, you get 8%.
 
So Florida lawmakers are patting themselves on the back over a case where "stand your ground worked exactly as intended." What they are trying not to notice is that the case in question was textbook self defense and would have been "no charges filed" under the laws of any state in the union, including Florida before their boneheaded invitation to murder was enacted.
 
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