The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Cutlass]

Or the federal government could, you know, allow peaceful secession? Why must any attempt to leave the Union be met with violence from the feds?

The longer this stuff goes on, the more I'm starting to agree with Tim that perhaps the people of the US have become too different in terms of ideology to peaceably coexist as a single nation and the country should probably be broken up into at least four or five separate nations.

It wasn't met with violence by the feds last time. The secessionist started the violence. What makes you think this time would be any different?

 

[El_Machinae]

I think the game Shattered Union divided up the US quite nicely:

The only major change I would really make would be to hand Arizona over to the Republic of Texas rather than making them part of California.

So, without a Federal Union, you'd be dooming huge swaths of people to perpetual poverty for the same reason why the internal regions of Africa are so poor. Redistribution, in the form of either direct payments or in the form of hiring and transfers, are incredibly important to keeping people from falling into poverty.

 

[metalhead]

Or the federal government could, you know, allow peaceful secession? Why must any attempt to leave the Union be met with violence from the feds?

Secession is illegal. And last time the Secesh attacked a federal military installation.

 

[EgonSpengler]

With liberals concentrated in the cities and conservatives dominating the countryside, you're proposing a really weird-looking map.

It's even a little more complicated than that. Remember the Democratic Party primary, where Sanders won so many exurban and rural areas. New York state was particularly interesting, where Sanders won handily in low-population areas, but Clinton won the population centers by a *ahem* country mile. If you look at Massachusetts by town, you'll see a thick red stripe down the middle, of working-class and poor towns that voted for Trump in the general election.

Well there is something to be said for geographical continuity. I mean, wecan't divide the US on just ideological or economic lines alone. That's also why it would make sense for some kind of "grace period" during the dissolution where government sponsored relocation programs could be made available for those who want to live somewhere more ideologically, economically, or socially closer to what they want.

Is there any reason we can't do that now, without literally ripping the country into pieces? One of the problems poor and working-class people face all across this country is that they can't move. They're un- or under-employed, underwater on mortgages, have no credit, and out-of-date job skills, and can't pack up because they can't afford to. Just anecdotally, I heard about one guy in a flood-prone area (it might have been Houston, which was in the news so much last year) who keeps getting federal money to rebuild his house every time it floods, which has been every year. He doesn't even want the house anymore, but nobody will buy it because, duh, it floods every year, and he stills owes the bank money on it. I don't know how common his story is.

Assuming the breakup is peaceful, I would certainly like to see the new nations maintain a strong economic relationship. Something similar to the Eurozone. Keep the common currency and still allow citizens of the former US to travel freely among the successor states.

I'm not sure the Eurozone is exactly a model right now. I mean, why would a prosperous region like the Northeast want to be in a simple trade relationship with Mississippi or Oklahoma? Can those states really support themselves without the rest of us? We put more money into the federal coffers than we take out, and I don't know if the farming states want to replace that with whatever trade deals they can negotiate with us.

So, without a Federal Union, you'd be dooming huge swaths of people to perpetual poverty for the same reason why the internal regions of Africa are so poor.

Bingo. I think California would be one of the world's top economies without the rest of us dragging them down, and there are parts of the US that are already an inch from being "3rd-world" countries.

 

[Hrothbern]

Is there not a middle ground with giving more autonomy to the states, but keeping the Federal shell intact regarding military & foreign affairs ?

Keeping some cohesion up, both for geopolitical as for economy of scale purposes...

And supporting the weak (farming) states, by making the contribution to the military and federal overhead cost based on GDP per Capita.
(to avoid the complicated development funding to poorer states like the EU does now by lack of real central cost)
Some consolidating of states with little population and GDP could be done as well to get better economy of scale.

On a side note:
I think all big federations/confederations, the US, EU, Russia, China struggle with the same issue, although it surfaces more in the EU and the US in public:
You want the benefits of a large entity for geopolitical and economy of scale (domestic & trading & internal migration)
You want the distance between citizens and their domestic policy government small for better cohesion between citizens and between citizens and institutions/government.

 

[El_Machinae]

And supporting the weak (farming) states, by making the contribution to the military and federal overhead cost based on GDP per Capita.

So, this has the economics backwards. I only have a second, but it's not the 'poor states' being taxed for the military that is making them poor. They will be poor for other reasons. But it's disproportionate spending on the military by the Union that allows those states to be less poor. The Federal government will over-spend in those regions (contracts, hiring, etc.) and this is a source of income (good income!) to those states. This allows them to have more money than they otherwise would.

 

[Farm Boy]

Bingo. I think California would be one of the world's top economies without the rest of us dragging them down, and there are parts of the US that are already an inch from being "3rd-world" countries.

Interesting that in this take the mechanical rooms filled with janitors and hvac and earthquake supports drag down the prosperity of the corner offices with expansive views of metroscape.

Edit: I know you get it, and that was snarky. I'm just fussing with the language.

 

[metalhead]

California is the largest farming state by gross receipts. Somehow they've diversified enough to have both thriving farms and lots of corner offices. Probably an HVAC tech or 2 even!

 

[Hrothbern]

So, this has the economics backwards. I only have a second, but it's not the 'poor states' being taxed for the military that is making them poor. They will be poor for other reasons. But it's disproportionate spending on the military by the Union that allows those states to be less poor. The Federal government will over-spend in those regions (contracts, hiring, etc.) and this is a source of income (good income!) to those states. This allows them to have more money than they otherwise would.

ahh... I did not make myself clear enough.

Yes I also think that the reasons that some states are "poor" are coming from their economy, geography, history, etc
And good to know that as of now the Federal Government is overspending there by contracts, hiring. Although I am not that confident that that kind of money is really doing more than creating local jobs with consumer spending economy. I doubt it really develops the economy.
My thoughts to strenghten them was to let them, by their citizens federal tax, pay less into the federal cost to have more money to develop their state.

 

[Sommerswerd]

If you look at Massachusetts by town, you'll see a thick red stripe down the middle, of working-class and poor towns that voted for Trump in the general election.

Actually no... Massachusetts was one of two states (the other being Hawaii) where Trump won not one single solitary county. We were all blue baby.

The "stripe down the middle" is more accurately described as a "thick light-blue stripe" as opposed to a red (or even pink) one.

It'Bingo. I think California would be one of the world's top economies without the rest of us dragging them down, and there are parts of the US that are already an inch from being "3rd-world" countries.

See, Mississippi.

 

[metalhead]

Without strict federal oversight, though, there is no way to ensure the money would be spent to develop their economies. That's the crux of the matter - federal dollars alone guarantee nothing. Federal "intrusion" as many of those states like to call it actually serves a purpose.

In theory, I'm in favor of broad block granting. I just don't know how, in practice, you can ensure money is spent for the common good without attaching lots of strings to it, and even then it ends up mostly wasted a lot of the time.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You didn't just favorably compare Brezhnev to Khrushchev in terms of general competence??

Nahhhh. I compared them both favorably to Trump in terms of general competence, and pointed to one Khrushchev incident that seems like something Trump might do.

 

[Hrothbern]

Federal "intrusion" as many of those states like to call it actually serves a purpose.

"Intrusion" in the local sovereignity....
Nice to read so much is similar between the US and the EU
Here UK Brexiteers see the EU projects also as intruding whereas the underdeveloped areas of the UK have often another opinion, the same in Spain IIRC the thread on Catalonia
And for Greece IDK the local opinions, but I do think that those projects can better be chosen and managed by Brussels than by the local govn people (with all that corruption there money flowing in the wrong pockets).

 

[Farm Boy]

California is the largest farming state by gross receipts. Somehow they've diversified enough to have both thriving farms and lots of corner offices. Probably an HVAC tech or 2 even!

It's not like it's a mystery. It's got half of the western seaboard in the age of trade with Asia, it's flat enormous to boot, and federal water and works investment in irrigating the desert was/is incredibly effective at growing a variety of things. Heat is countered in comfort by spending energy on air conditioning. Somehow somehow somehow. If only we had a template for investments in things like running electricity being useful! Oh well. Snarkity snark snark.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Actually no... Massachusetts was one of two states (the other being Hawaii) where Trump won not one single solitary county. We were all blue baby.

You have to look down at the municipal level. The NY Times has a map that illustrates what I'm describing. Even in a state that, on the whole, was a wipeout for Clinton, there are staunch "Trump towns."

See, Mississippi.

Right, I think there are parts of this country that would be up a creek if they were on their own, and a lot of them lean Republican and wave Confederate flags. Go figure. I've heard it said that Bobby Jindal did more damage to Louisiana's economy than Hurricane Katrina did. Oklahoma's public schools are getting a lot of attention right now, but I've also heard that the Oklahoma State Police are rationing gas among their vehicles.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Without strict federal oversight, though, there is no way to ensure the money would be spent to develop their economies. That's the crux of the matter - federal dollars alone guarantee nothing. Federal "intrusion" as many of those states like to call it actually serves a purpose.

In theory, I'm in favor of broad block granting. I just don't know how, in practice, you can ensure money is spent for the common good without attaching lots of strings to it, and even then it ends up mostly wasted a lot of the time.

Just look what states have done with TANF (temporary assistance for need families) program money with few strings attached. Money that's meant to go toward jobless benefits and food instead go to abstinence parties for upper class white kids in college.

Here's an article on the subject. The actual radio show dug more into the abstinence parties than the article does. They asked the kids who were at these parties what they thought of food stamps/unemployment cash and they pretty much to a person thought they were just handouts for lazy people. When they told the kids these parties were being thrown using that money instead of going to needy families they had a mute reaction.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/famil...al-and-state-funds-under-the-tanf-block-grant

And the abstinence parties are of course just a tiny sliver of the money being spent. Most of it is being used to fill budget holes the states created with tax giveaways. The right loves to rant about high-tax states but conveniently overlook the fact that their own spending is irresponsible in low-tax states and underwritten by tax dollars taken from the high-tax states. They get a free ride but are somehow manage to still be resentful about it.

 

[EgonSpengler]

It's not like it's a mystery. It's got half of the western seaboard in the age of trade with Asia[...]

I was just thinking this. If California were its own country, I bet the Port of Los Angeles would still be the Port of Los Angeles, and the rest of us would still be buying stuff from Asia.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

"Intrusion" in the local sovereignity....
Nice to read so much is similar between the US and the EU
Here UK Brexiteers see the EU projects also as intruding whereas the underdeveloped areas of the UK have often another opinion, the same in Spain IIRC the thread on Catalonia
And for Greece IDK the local opinions, but I do think that those projects can better be chosen and managed by Brussels than by the local govn people (with all that corruption there money flowing in the wrong pockets).

The U.S. has been fighting amongst itself about Federalism for the last 230+ years. We're experts!

 

[Farm Boy]

Go figure.

I was just thinking this. If California were its own country, I bet the Port of Los Angeles would still be the Port of Los Angeles, and the rest of us would still be buying stuff from Asia.

Yup. Police rationing gas and all.

 

[Synobun]

Peaceful secession should definitely be a thing.

RE: Commodore's map, y'all can't be discussing drawing up new borders and completely ignore Cascadia.