The Thread Where We Discuss Guns and Gun Control

[Lexicus]

Everyone is sort of OK with the society that feeds the despair, but they'd rather not hear about it.

Yeah, I mean, I agree this critique applies to plenty of libs, but I don't think it's fair to say that I'm "OK" with the existing state of society. We may not agree on diagnoses or what changes to make but you can't claim I'm not in favor of radical social change with a straight face.

Yup, totally the guns that are the problem. Those suicides are not overdoses of lead.

The widespread availability of guns is the principal cause of widespread gun violence - I don't think that is a particularly controversial claim. It would be wrong to claim that guns are the cause of all violence or that all social problems can be solved by disarmament.

 

[EgonSpengler]

You'll find that rebuilding legislation works a lot better than a series of step-wise precedents being fought one weird battle at a time. The 2nd Amendment is an an obsolete amendment, because it has almost nothing to do with the current make-up, except being the foundation of a hodge-podge of common law. It would be better to have a better foundation.

It has 200 years of intense scrutiny under the law. It's better settled than the 4th by miles, as one stupid example.

I think that's debatable. At the level of the Supreme Court, I think most 2nd Amendment cases have been recent, controversial, and decided by narrow margins. iirc, there was a case in the late 19th Century that I think was the first 2nd-Amendment case to reach the Supreme Court. iirc, in that instance the Court affirmed that the 2nd Amendment was about service in an organized state militia. I think there was also a case in the '20s or '30s that established that sawed-off shotguns were not protected by the 2nd Amendment, because saw-off shotguns have no use on a battlefield, as part of an organized militia.

I'm not sure about lower courts or state legislatures. For instance, when Gov. Reagan signed the Mulford Act into law in California in the '60s, I don't know if that went to the Supreme Court, but I think it passed the California Senate on a bipartisan basis. It was even supported by the NRA. So I don't think there's a lot to suggest that the 2nd Amendment is "settled", by any measure, and I think the intense scrutiny it's gotten lately is, in fact, pretty recent.

 

[Farm Boy]

Lex, it's not controversial to you. You find it convenient to categorize it as such. But other deaths, now. Those bother you less to stave off despair. Or we whine about the bar being too high to decide to leave. You won't let people live, you won't let them die, the only lack of controversy is people don't want to hear about your ****, so long as you make them a buck.

 

[Lexicus]

But other deaths, now. Those bother you less to stave off despair.

Seriously what the hell are you talking about, this is literally the guns and gun control thread

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Dude, it was a 10-second google search.


I see that he was a lifeguard, so he might have had some basic First Aid training. That's about all slack I can cut him. Well, that and he was 17.

I also see now that he acquired the gun by way of a "straw purchase" - someone else bought the gun for him, because he wasn't legally old enough to get it himself. The more I read about this, the worse it looks to me.

Being a medic is not a vigilante action. Neither is protecting private property. Neither is putting out fires (in the literal sense). Going after criminals would be a vigilante action, but that didn't happen, and when given an opportunity, Rittenhouse attempted to get away from criminals. Those criminals pursued and assaulted him, so it's a good thing he had a gun to protect himself rather than getting the crap kicked out of him (or worse).

 

[Farm Boy]

Seriously what the hell are you talking about, this is literally the guns and gun control thread

Why yes it is. Principles variable like dress, depending on The Issue.

The seething mass of despair behind a high suicide rate? Let's just raise the fence, eh?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I believe it has been previously alleged that further violating 2A would make it harder for those in despair to act on it, though the impact that doing this has on despair wrt how it influences society and government authoritarianism tends not to be dwelled on.

 

[El_Machinae]

As Lexicus pointed out, some people do have a more complete plan.

Rittenhouse attempted to get away from criminals.

I don't think they've been charged?

As well, I don't know what portion of them thought they were taking down an active shooter, which (I believe, but don't know) would be exculpatory if charges were brought.

Given those, I'm not sure he was "trying to get away from criminals". Get away from assaulters, sure.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Given those, I'm not sure he was "trying to get away from criminals". Get away from assaulters, sure.

I don't think having a successful self defense claim where people die/get a chunk of arm blown off can imply a situation where the assailants were not committing a crime...

Plus TECHNICALLY, those guys already had criminal history so either way lol.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Remington did not shoot up a school. This is more false causal attribution.

If a bar tender sells you too many drinks and you kill folks while driving home, the bartender is liable. False causal attribution?

 

[Farm Boy]

Remington sold a weapon, designed to kill humans. Take care of pretty near any mammal on the continent. Polar bear? Sure.

 

[IglooDame]

On the upside, my local Pink Pistol chapter has resumed organized activities.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

This happened a month ago, so not completely topical, but hey we're still talking about Kyle Rittenhouse so...

Anyway here is what is reported to have happened.
A Florida Republican politician John Kuczwanski hit a Prius while drifting out of his lane. They pulled over and after exchanging words returned to their cars. Then Kuczwanski rammed the Prius with his BMW and opened fire on him. The Prius driver was also carrying a gun and returned fire killing Kuczwanski. Kuczwanski apparently had previously been arrested for another incident of pulling out a gun during a road rage incident. Kuczwanski was a noted gun enthusiast and his last tweet was about trying to win another gun for himself. Florida naturally being a Republican state has a stand your ground law so the Prius driver is not being charged with any crime as things stand. Strangely enough Kuczwanski's wife is not celebrating this as a great example of 'a good guy with a gun', 'justified self defense - ie stand your ground' or 'the importance of the second amendment' but instead is calling him a "victim who was assassinated."
The whole affair is dripping in irony. The laws he supported (carrying a gun, stand your ground, etc) mean that he was legally killed over a minor traffic accident (which he caused) in a shoot out (he also caused). The fact it was by a Prius driver (meaning that people assume the person who shot him was a Liberal) is just a cherry on top of the irony pie.
Just to be clear as well as thinking this is ironic, I also think it is very sad and very stupid. It has left a widow, and 2 daughters now no longer have a father, all over a minor traffic accident. I am also neither applauding or condemning the Prius driver for his actions. You might point to this as a good case of the importance of carrying a gun. The Prius driver would have been in deep **** when Kuczwanski opened fire on him if he hadn't been carrying. Of course if no one had been carrying a gun, then a woman would still have a husband, and 2 daughters would still have a father...
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/485132-john-kuczwanski-killed-in-road-rage-incident/

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think having a successful self defense claim where people die/get a chunk of arm blown off can imply a situation where the assailants were not committing a crime...

I don't think that's true. Or if you look at what I said longer, they'd have exculpatory evidence.

My impression is that this kind of event can happen without anyone being a criminal.


Even if I'm right, that would just be a price of freedom. School shootings, kids killing friends, and exporting black market firearms is just a steeper price

 

[Spidernova]

On the upside, my local Pink Pistol chapter has resumed organized activities.

Are they able to find ammo?
I haven't been able to get anything other than FMJ, and all the ranges here ban that. Of course they're happy to sell you their stuff at 30% markup.

 

[Kyriakos]

If most of the guns owned by private citizens are of the rifle type, would it not be workable to legislate some psych test for ownership? Because guns (for hunting - but obviously if you have the gun, you can use it for self-defense too) are legal under some circumstances in other countries too, but tend to require psychological evaluation to grant permit to even buy and own.
Although maybe there is a loophole with leaving behind those guns to your offspring after your death, as family possessions etc - but that isn't much of a problem; if you can wait decades to own the gun, it seems to be a win in the case of the US
You can also (again, in some other countries) get a permit for a handgun, but only if you show that you are under real risk & again after a psychological evaluation.

 

[Spidernova]

If most of the guns owned by private citizens are of the rifle type, would it not be workable to legislate some psych test for ownership? Because guns (for hunting - but obviously if you have the gun, you can use it for self-defense too) are legal under some circumstances in other countries too, but tend to require psychological evaluation to grant permit to even buy and own.
Although maybe there is a loophole with leaving behind those guns to your offspring after your death, as family possessions etc - but that isn't much of a problem; if you can wait decades to own the gun, it seems to be a win in the case of the US
You can also (again, in some other countries) get a permit for a handgun, but only if you show that you are under real risk & again after a psychological evaluation.

So in my case, I'm (high functioning) autistic. Depending on who creates the psych test, or even who administers it, that could very easily disqualify me from firearms ownership. You could just as easily tweak said test to try to filter out the poor or minority groups, like how IQ tests show different results.
The logic goes something like- I have never broken the law in my life, or even committed any acts of violence. I will pass any background check with flying colors. Why should I have to pay the government in both time and money to prove that I'm a functional and sane adult when my actions clearly already have?

 

[IglooDame]

Are they able to find ammo?
I haven't been able to get anything other than FMJ, and all the ranges here ban that. Of course they're happy to sell you their stuff at 30% markup.

FMJ is pretty much all they are shooting. Me too, except for my .45ACP reloads. They/we are using public ranges, though given how cold it still is, I'm trying to get an indoor range session going. The ranges here are good with anything not-steelcore, for pistol calibers. Rifle calibers are where they require frangible ammo, understandably. Where is 'here' for you?

 

[Spidernova]

FMJ is pretty much all they are shooting. Me too, except for my .45ACP reloads. They/we are using public ranges, though given how cold it still is, I'm trying to get an indoor range session going. The ranges here are good with anything not-steelcore, for pistol calibers. Rifle calibers are where they require frangible ammo, understandably. Where is 'here' for you?

Handloading is a lot of fun. I only do it for .44 right now, but its great to be able to customize ammo depending on if anyone is going with you.
DFW area. The weird part is that the indoor ranges are the ones that allow fmj. I've got my PTR and a pile of steel cased .308 that I would love to shoot, but I'm not going to fire it off at 25 yards. Plus, that rifle absolutely destroys brass, so I don't really want to feed it nice ammo. And I kind of feel guilty about the noise indoor when other people bring 9mm or .22 or something small.

 

[IglooDame]

Handloading is a lot of fun.
DFW area. The weird part is that the indoor ranges are the ones that allow fmj. I've got my PTR and a pile of steel cased .308 that I would love to shoot, but I'm not going to fire it off at 25 yards. Plus, that rifle absolutely destroys brass, so I don't really want to feed it nice ammo. And I kind of feel guilty about the noise indoor when other people bring 9mm or .22 or something small.

Yeah, you're one of those loud rifle-types. The only rifles I own are chambered in .22LR or .45ACP, so... I can't empathize. And really, the Pink Pistols are theoretically primarily concerned about pistols, as it's focused on personal self-defense and gaybashing generally doesn't happen where rifles are at hand.