The Three Missing Leader Trait Combos

[Grumbling Bear]

Would IND/PHI really be any more overpowered than FIN/ORG ? Or what about AGG/CHA in the hands of a master warmonger? I think they should include all the possible combos and just leave it up to each individual to decide as to whether or not they want to play it.

 

[Rhaeghar]

Since this subject was brought up and I was thinking about sharing this anyways, I've made an excel spreadsheet with all of the leaders, trait combo's and starting techs and placed a filter at the top so you can quickly look through the leaders for a particular trait or starting tech. It also happens to be color coded to my wishes. For those of you who have been playing longer this may not be as useful as to some of us who haven't, but then again I guess it is a lot to remember so it may be useful for some of the older players still.

It is in office 2007 format and it is in .rar format since you cannot post a .xlsx

Edit: NOTE** because of how many leaders there are not all of the traits are collapsible into the first trait or second trait. In other words the two columns do share some traits such as spiritual (not all spiritual leaders can be found by looking at just the trait 1 column for spiritual.)

 

[UWHabs]

Ind/Phi would be very strong at the mid levels, but once you get to Emp+, I don't think it's any stronger than any other good pair (ie. Phi/Org, Fin/Phi, Fin/Org, Cha/Org, Cha/Fin, etc...)

Charismating/Creative I think would be very strong. Yes, you have the case of wanting but not needing the monuments early, but as mentioned, there are already 2 creative leaders with monument UB. I think it would be strongest early since not only do you get the extra happiness from Charismatic and monuments, but you also get cheap coliseums for more happiness. Throw on cheap libraries and you can get a strong, early specialist game going.

Have no idea why Pro/Org wasn't in. Sounds like a decent combo at higher levels. Probably they either didn't want to add another leader, or couldn't find one good enough.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Have no idea why Pro/Org wasn't in. Sounds like a decent combo at higher levels. Probably they either didn't want to add another leader, or couldn't find one good enough.

I think they should have made Mao Dezong Org/Pro. Organized was one of his original traits in vanilla, back when he was Org/Phi. Don't know why they they felt the need to make him Exp/Pro when Org/Pro wasn't taken.

Yes, you have the case of wanting but not needing the monuments early, but as mentioned, there are already 2 creative leaders with monument UB.

Although I dislike the stele for that reason, I think the obelisk is still good because its main function for Hatshepsut is providing priest slots, not culture.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I don't understand the argument that a IND/PHI leader would be overpowered. Who cares? All the leaders aren't equal anyway. This game has adjustable difficulty levels! If I want to stomp the AI, I can choose any other number of options to tip the scale in my favor.

My guess is that the trait synergy is so simple that even the AI could understand it.

I don't promise that, though - the AI can be pretty stupid.

The main problem I would see in single play is the IND/PHI leader turning up among the AI. A synergy driven wonder whore on the other continent could take a lot of fun out of things, and I would guess that the entire focus of the game could easily turn into "stomp the WonderKind, then mop up the rest".

The two kinds of tests I would want to run are
1) Give the traits to the human player, and score people on how many GP they generate.
2) Give the traits to a remote AI, and see how the game plays out.

 

[mi6agent]

IND/PHIL clearly better than FIN/ORG. If you are Darius , to fully leverage the benifit of FIN/ORG you have to REX very hard, or war non stop, and build . .. .. .. . load of cottage. If you are IND/PHIL, just have few city , sit your ass in your capital , spam wonder and settle great people which pops out like pop corn

 

[admtanaka]

My guess is that the trait synergy is so simple that even the AI could understand it.

I don't promise that, though - the AI can be pretty stupid.

The main problem I would see in single play is the IND/PHI leader turning up among the AI. A synergy driven wonder whore on the other continent could take a lot of fun out of things, and I would guess that the entire focus of the game could easily turn into "stomp the WonderKind, then mop up the rest".

The two kinds of tests I would want to run are
1) Give the traits to the human player, and score people on how many GP they generate.
2) Give the traits to a remote AI, and see how the game playes out.

I suppose this is possible, but the PHI trait wouldn't assist the AI very much in wonder-whoring (unless he pops a ton of GEs), and if necessary you could always play with his "wonder flavor" or "builds wonders" (or whatever it's called) value in the xml. You're right though, it would require some testing.

 

[futurehermit]

I've played these trait combos in a mod and think they are fine, really.

Cre/Char...works totally fine together. Very nice warmongering combo. You still ignore monuments early and just treat them as a building that you add when you need the

Org/Pro...not very powerful combo. Could easily be added.

Ind/Phil...Excellent synergy, obviously, but I did not find it game breaking to be honest. Would not be a powerful combo in multiplayer. And, in single player, who cares if a leader is powerful? Praets, quechuas, etc. are in the game, right?

 

[qwert]

I think Philip II of Spain would make for a good Org/Pro leader. He was a good administrator who insisted on leading all matters of the spanish nation (we are speaking of an empire that stretchs from Amerika to Philipines). He also was an isolationist, almost closing spanish borders in order to maintain Luthers reform outside Spain.
The problem would be that (as the AI) he would be a mixture of Tokugawa isolationism´s (maybe not as extreme) and Isabella´s fanatiscism.

 

[Grey Fox]

My gut feeling tells me that IND/PHI would be overpowered.

Another reason for it to not exist is that it combines the two major strategies to get specialists, as well as boosting the already existing synergy of wonders and GPP.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Creative charismatic is a shame to be missing....they could just add a nice bonus to the monument as a UB (-10% city maintenance for example) to make it worthwhile to build.

Ind/philo is broken

and pro/org is not anything special...I would take org with any other trait instead...

 

[futurehermit]

To those who say that ind/phi is overpowered, if you haven't already, I suggest downloading one of the mod leaders with ind/phi and try it out. It can be strong, but it doesn't feel as gamebreaking as I thought it might.

It would be very strong for OCC though.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

To those who say that ind/phi is overpowered, if you haven't already, I suggest downloading one of the mod leaders with ind/phi and try it out. It can be strong, but it doesn't feel as gamebreaking as I thought it might.

Well, I suppose it depends on the difficulty you play on. Noble or Prince, for example, would be incredibly powerful since (as an IND leader) it is possible to grab almost every wonder especially if you have access to multiplier resources. On lower levels it isn't even necessary to be IND to get all the wonders and on high levels (Immortal/Deity), it's likely that you will miss most of the wonders unless possessing multiplier resources. So a wonder strategy would have to revolve around claiming multipliers.

I don't think it's powerful enough to exclude it for that specific reason.

 

[Grumbling Bear]

Maybe it's because I am only a monarch player but it seems to me that Darius has no problem keeping pace or even leading the tech race all the way into and thru the modern era with only a third or a quarter of the cities/land of the other leaders. In just about every game i've played with him in it, my only 2 choices to prevent him from winning have been either vassalization .. or genocide.

 

[Nissin]

Charismatic and Creative would be OP too, not just Philosophical and Industrious.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Protective/Organized is pretty much my dream trait combo. Not that it's overpowered, but that it suits my style of play like a glove. I'd still give it to Japan before Spain.

 

[cabert]

Maybe it's because I am only a monarch player but it seems to me that Darius has no problem keeping pace or even leading the tech race all the way into and thru the modern era with only a third or a quarter of the cities/land of the other leaders. In just about every game i've played with him in it, my only 2 choices to prevent him from winning have been either vassalization .. or genocide.

that is when you don't play him
in the hands of a human, the real power is to grow nonstop, through immortals and cottages

 

[PieceOfMind]

Org/Pro sounds like an awesome trait. Only thing that doesn't feel right is getting 50% civic upkeep reduction on a civic that has zero cost in the first place! (Nationalism).

At first I thought Org/Pro would be the ultimate draft-madness combo, where the goal is to spam granaried/courthoused/barracksed cities as densely as possible, drafting units that are practically all UUs after gunpowder. Cheap lighthouses make coastal city spamming a tad easier, and any map that has a lot of little islands will be awesome with an Org/Pro leader. I bet before Flight you'd have a lot of trouble taking a 1-tile island city defended by Protective Archery or Gunpowder units.

If you were to give an Org/Pro leader a UU or UB that synergised well with the trait (like the Spanish leader mentioned earlier in the thread), it'd just be icing on the cake!

 

[Stewie0416]

Creative Char seems to me as a great leader. Early happiness combined with cheap libraries and maybe even caste allow for a pretty decent SE. Later on the +2 culture w/ Char's xp bonuses and happiness could help with some drafted rifle-spam war to domination. It saves quite a lot of time having that +2 Culture helping out there.

Protective Org seems middle range here, nothing too special. I guess you could kinda pull of a EE with castles and courthouse spies...give the leader a good UB and UU and its a pretty middle range leader.

Ind/Phil, well people say its overpowered but I don't think people can complain about that with a Fin/Org and a Agg/Char leader out there.

 

[Crusher1]

Ind/Phil, well people say its overpowered but I don't think people can complain about that with a Fin/Org and a Agg/Char leader out there

If Stone and Marble are around, crazy overpowered. Mids, then commence the settle GP fest. You could end up with a 500 beaker capital before 1000 AD with some sick early teching.

Cre/Cha has some big time early strength. Quick border pops with great tile access and early scientist, combined with +1 happiness would allow that leader to quickly work more tiles at the earliest date possible then anyone else out there. Basically, you save workable tiles and population from no need to whip monuments plus you get to work an early +1 tile. Very strong.