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The Three Missing Leader Trait Combos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by civvver, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    You are understating how bad her trait combo. I will come out and say what no one else will. Her trait combo sucks donkey. That plus the fact that her UU and UB are garbage makes me wonder why Firaxis hates the Scotts and the Irish so much.
     
  2. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Shoot, even among the Celts, I'd rather play Brennus any day. Being able to switch into builder/economic civics and then back into war civics with impunity is a far bigger bonus to the player than cheap Barracks and Combat 1 promotions.

    I think what's being taken for granted here is the fact that Aggressive might not even be the best warmonger trait. Honestly, the issue for me is rarely having units with a ton of promotions, but rather getting the the production to build a lot of units. I'd much rather have Expansive when going to war--cheaper Granaries to whip plus cheaper Workers to chop equals a bigger army quicker, which in my experience seems to be more of a factor without any number-crunching on my part. That's not to say Aggressive and Charismatic aren't useful, but that extra production capacity in a critical area makes Expansive better for war in my book. Alongside the Ikhanda, it's what makes Shaka such a monster.
     
  3. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    SPI is my top warmonger trait, probably followed by ORG (an economic edge is very welcome, warmonger civics are more expensive than average, in full effect in underdeveloped conquests).
     
  4. Target MC

    Target MC Bad Monarch

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    I was only mentioning what other people were saying earlier in this thread. Darius I could just as well be considered in his own category. As for Boudica, her traits are very much on par with Genghis Khan and Tokugawa. Purely warmongering traits, and unless you've got a good reason to do Culture/Space Race victories with these leaders, better to pick someone who's better suited for cottage/specialist economies.

    Tokugawa is a below average leader overall.

    His Samurai are decent, but not nearly enough to put them at being one of the top tier unique units.

    The only stand out I could find with him is his Gunpowder units get three free promotions: Combat I, City Garrison I and Drill I. Certainly fun to take down your opponents with Riflemen, and Tokugawa is good with them (at least when you're playing as him). Other than that, he's not that great of a leader.

    When you're not playing for Conquest/Domination, it's like playing a leader without traits. On the higher difficulties combined with an economy disadvantage, you're more than likely to struggle with Toku. I don't see at all how he's overpowered in anything.

    Hunting is certainly useful in that regard. Ivory camps are better than what some people take them for.

    Was it something I said in my previous post that triggered this conversation about Boudica?

    CHM is decent, but it can viewed in both ways. Good for when you need a little more happiness (+1 happiness by itself combined with the +1 happiness from Monuments gives you +2 happiness whereas leaders without CHM won't get any extra happiness) and decent for getting promotions sooner (-25% XP needed for promotions)

    AGG is debatable, but I would definitely agree that it's not in the likes of CRE, ORG, FIN, IND and PHI.

    As long as your lucky with Toku and know how to use him right, you can do pretty well. When I do the early game with him, I tend to struggle more than I succeed with leaders that have economic traits.

    AGG/PRO is just as terrible. AGG/IMP doesn't hold a lot of merit either.

    I tend to find that a lot of people would rather pick a leader who isn't Aggressive or Protective, rather than to pick a leader who is quite limited in his/her economy. Boudica is certainly limited in that particular area.

    Again, if it's something I said about AGG/CHM that triggered this conversation, feel free to mention what I said wrong.

    Her UU is okay for hills defense, but I would prefer getting Archery units to defend my cities. As for her UB, it's nothing special. Just a revamped edition of 'Walls' that provide Guerilla I. Who do you know today that builds a lot of walls in their games?

    Who said that Firaxis hated the Scotts and Irish?

    That's why Spiritual is good for those kinds of situations. You can switch back to Slavery and the like without going into Anarchy, and the cheap temples really help in the long run.

    You can probably look at Napoleon and Julius Caesar to be better warmongers than leaders like Tokugawa and Genghis Khan. Napoleon and Caesar both have Organized, which helps in managing a bigger empire, and they certainly got the potential to go ecstatic in the early game. Especially for Caesar, whose Praetorians often mow down opposing cities, even with highly upgraded Archers. It's like getting a Maceman early, but without the need to research Civil Service. Praetorians can definitely tip the game over in your favor.

    Napoleon's Charismatic trait helps to boost a little more happiness, and unhappiness gained from prolonged wars certainly isn't a good thing. With both Caesar and Napoleon having Organized, you can definitely keep a bigger empire going without going too far into a deficit.

    Playing as Tokugawa just doesn't give off the same kinds of successes you get with Caesar and Napoleon nearly as frequently. Aggressive isn't as good as it sounds to be.

    Expansive is better than Aggressive. Aggressive by itself doesn't hold much merit.

    I tend to do better with Shaka only because his UB provides a -20% maintenance reduction. It's available right from turn one, and that strong early game often seen with Shaka makes that UB one of the best in the game.

    As a matter of fact, the highest score I got as of now was with Shaka, because I was whipping Ikhandas like crazy to get an early Conquest victory.

    Gotta hate anarchy, right?

    Don't need to use any Golden Age to switch civics. I often switch as many as four-five civics at once with Spiritual, and I don't get any anarchy from doing so. Having to deal with two consecutive turns of anarchy is just annoying.

    There's a good reason why it's harder to play with Tokugawa as opposed to someone like Julius Caesar and Mansa Musa.
     
  5. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Yeah, I'm not picking on you, Target; it just seemed like a few people in here were saying Boudica was overpowered when I just can't see it. Charismatic is on the whole probably my favorite trait in the game just because it's so much fun, but on Boudica it doesn't quite get the job done. Napoleon--whom you'd mentioned--and the two Charismatic American leaders can leverage the trait much better.
     
  6. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    This is exactly why Asoka is my favorite warmonger, not to mention he has an awesome UU that is available from turn 1 and never becomes completely obsolete...
     
  7. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    Sorry, I wasn't trying to pick on you either. It's just that on paper, Boudica seems like she could be really strong. When I randomly roll her, I'm thinking, "alright! Another chance to see the pure warmonger really shine."

    And then I fall flat on my face for whatever reason.

    Agg and Pro may not be nearly as powerful as the other traits, but both of them have saved me before in the early game.

    Char is ok as a trait to whip more (that's what I tend to use the extra happy on), and the promotion advantage is convenient. However, I can't get the promotion side to its full potential, so the trait's value is dependent on how many luxury resources I have access to.

    Going back to the original topic, I'm pretty sure that both Pro/Org and Char/Cre would be decent but far from overwhelming.

    I'm not a big fan of specialists, so I personally would tend to think Ind/Phi would be underwhelming. I could see it being useful in others' hands, though.
     
  8. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    In my eyes Toku actually starts with a fine economic "trait." Starting The Wheel Fishing allows for your first tech to be Pottery, and if your lands right your economy will explode, this also allows for extremely early Writing. Now on IMP, IMP is strong it applies to whips, and chops. Now how is getting settlers out 5-6 turns faster bad? It's not Philosophical but not much is.

    The Celts are the original Scottish and Irish, yet both leaders have so so traits, and a garbage UU and UB.
     
  9. Habitus

    Habitus Emperor

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    Hmm you realised that while the best known surviving modern day celtic heritage is irish/scottish that Celts originated from Central Europe, and were over most of Europe.

    Boudica isn't great but I wouldn't call her awful either, Cha has atleast some economic benefit from the extra happiness. Brennus i think has decent traits, Spi is strong and is also somewhat of a mixed warmonger/economy trait like Cha. Economy from saved anarchy turns, easier diplo, and easy of having the best traits for any 5 turns your playing.
     
  10. Target MC

    Target MC Bad Monarch

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    Don't put starting techs in the same category as leader traits.

    Unless you consider the small espionage bonus and additional trade route from Castles something worthwhile, Tokugawa isn't exactly stellar in the economic field.

    I never said IMP was bad, I'm just saying that AGG is something that tends to be 50/50. Some people like it, some people hate it.

    I think you're just trying to say that the Celts suck badly on Civilization IV, but are otherwise okay in the real world.
     
  11. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    Ok, so which civilizations suck badly in the real world? :)
     
  12. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Cambodia, Mongolia, Greece, Italy, France, Portuguese.
     
  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I remember this topic from years ago. :goodjob:

    I still stand by my Meiji/El Cid/third leader suggestion. In fact, the PHI/IND leader could have a UB that actually decreases production and/or GP generation, similar to how the Jaguar decreases the strength of the Swordsman. It's benefit would be related with expansion, not GPP or production bonuses. One thing I should have emphasized was that by making Meiji Cre/Chm, we would get more variety in Japan's games, since Toku is one of the worst AI's (doesn't OB at pleased, hurts his econ). Someone with a better personality would increase the chances of Japan being strong in the AI's hands.
     
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