1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old World has finally been released on GOG and Steam, besides also being available in the Epic store . Come to our Old World forum and discuss with us!
    Dismiss Notice

The Three Missing Leader Trait Combos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by civvver, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,319
    Location:
    Australia
    I don't think it would make much difference on gameplay. It wouldn't matter if city defenses went up 1000 times faster after bombardment stopped - most people don't usually let city defenses go up again.

    It would probably make Protective look even more like a crappy turtler trait.
     
  2. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,205
    Rather make Protective have double GG rate inside own cultural borders or when defending, or have own units receive experience as if they had leadership when fighting inside own cultural borders - or when defending.

    If looking to economize the trait, make it so that each city can support 2 free domestic units (would cost regular support abroad) or double the :) effect of military police under Protective. (Churchill would have some seriously large cities early on)

    Or... if you'd be about militarizing the trait even more, make it so that whenever an enemy is inside your cultural borders, you can draft - nationhood or not.
     
  3. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    6,954
    Location:
    New York City
    In the Mod I made altering traits I gave Protective an additional 100% GG production inside cultural borders. It's very easy to do and the option is already in the XML Leaders file, just set at 0%. My guess is the programmers origionally planned to give protective that bonus but opted out of it, probably because the Protective AIs would be a bigger pain.
     
  4. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,319
    Location:
    Australia
    In PIG, I've opted for the suggestion (which seems to be a common one to buff Protective) to give +100% production on security bureaus.

    Also, Protective gets indirectly boosted by the fact a first strike chance was taken from Drilll IV and instead put on Drill I.

    I fear a GG100% bonus inside cultural borders may be over the top after the other 2 changes.

    By the way, would Protective AIs with GG100% bonus in their borders really be much more of a pain? I get the impression the AI is pretty pathetic with its use of great leaders anyway.

    My guess would have been the option is there because it was a bonus given to the great wall and adding it to the civics xml wouldn't have been difficult, and that modders might want to use it on civics.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  5. mc-red

    mc-red King

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2007
    Messages:
    967
    FDR already has the fastest GLH in the game.
     
  6. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Scipio Africanus has been born in Hadrumetum!
    Scipio Africanus has been killed!

    Sound familiar? :lol:
     
  7. Mikehendi

    Mikehendi IDHEOMHRN

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    461
    Try this mod:

    http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/c4tourney/adv41.html

    Fire up Civ, click Load a Mod, and then the adv41 mod

    It makes Ghandi IND/PHI (+ fast worker :eek: )
    Saladin CRE/CHA
    Isabella ORG/PRO

    Have Fun!
     
  8. rollo1066

    rollo1066 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    kenmore wa
    How about a Tang dynasty ruler as creative/charismatic? I think the second Tang emperior would fit this profile (can't remember how to spell his name). If France can have a third leader why not China? Mao and Qin are too much alike (both in game play and history).
     
  9. jdp29

    jdp29 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    67
    Is there a Cre/Ind combo? I don't seem to recall one. Maybe its a German one?
     
  10. madviking

    madviking north american scum

    Joined:
    May 22, 2005
    Messages:
    11,337
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    flavortown
    Louis XIV
     
  11. Absolute Zero

    Absolute Zero Settler

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    USA
    The problem with Protective is that in general, the human player is on the attacking side of the war. A defensive trait such as Protective will be less useful for humans but helpful for the AI, who are usually on the defending side of the war. So it's difficult to find a balance where Protective is strong enough for a human to make use out of it, but not so strong that humans can't defeat AIs with it.
     
  12. StrategeryBush

    StrategeryBush Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2007
    Messages:
    205
    I would think that if there were to be a Phi/Ind leader he'd have to be Greek. The Greek's philosophical credentials are beyond question, and you'll notice that most of the ancient wonders actually were built by the Greeks. Colossus, Mausoleum, Statue of Zeus, Oracle, Temple of Artemis, Parthenon, and I'm probably missing one or two. Clearly they had to be Industrious to have managed all of that.
     
  13. EMT

    EMT Hated by the Spaniards(?)

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    467
    The Mausoleum of Maussolos was built by either hellenized Persians or native original Anatolians, and you're missing the GLH, which was built by hellenized Egyptians(I think). But, I agree, it'd most likely have to be a Greek. Someone that tops Pericles! :p
     
  14. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Impossible. :lol:

    If we're looking at other Athenian leaders, perhaps Pericles could be switched to PHI/IND since he without a doubt qualifies as the latter (lots of the great building projects of the time – including the Parthenon – he sponsored or ordered) and give CRE/PHI to Solon as in addition to being a lawmaker he was a poet. Of course then Greece would have two leaders with ridiculously useful trait combos, along with a stellar UB, which would make them pretty insanely powerful. As they should be. :p
     
  15. z0wb13

    z0wb13 undead

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Messages:
    657
    i would like to point anyone who is interested to a mod that i made.

    it adds three leaders:
    meiji; japanese: industrious/philosophical (builder)
    audenauer; german: creative/charismatic (whip warmonger)
    constantine; roman: protective/organized (draft warmonger)

    i messed around with their ai's, so it actually comes out kind of balanced, though not historically accurate. i was going to implement them as the axis powers, but some of those leaders are decidedly controversial, so i came up with these three as a compromise. the only problem that i have with this mod is that i can't get it to run alongside BUG.

    i like to play a OCC every once in a while with meiji, for fun. the shale plant is nice for this, ensuring you a way to get power even with a dearth of resources.

    CRE/CHA i have found to be an excellent early warmonger combo, while PRO/ORG is good for war once you can draft.

    anyway, if anyone uses this, please rate it. rather, rate it a 10;p
     
  16. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2008
    Messages:
    892
    This is a good a place as any for me to say that I'm playing as Darius I for the first time in what must be at least a year, and that Financial/Organized should probably be outlawed, or at least not paired with such nice Uniques.

    Dear lord, I play random leader/random map script, so I had no idea that I was going to draw Darius. I also had no idea that I was going to be dropped right in the bottom middle of a Pangaea. I got me a nice capital on a flood plain rich river covered area. Second city secured horses. Third secured elephants. (The elephants seemed important, because Augie was directly to my WSW, and I wanted something to smack around Praets, should the need arise.) After city three, off I went to the east to kick Mayan butt off the map. I went for construction quickly, since a couple catapults would be all I need to deal with his UU until I could capture his copper city. Once he was dead, and HBR was completed (all of the research was powered by a floodplain rich capital and cottages with the FIN bonus), I started one city on Elephant duty and just send the troops north to wipe out the Incan civilization. By 500 AD, I control the entire center of the map, and ran science at 20% with a couple scientists allowing me to research moderately well towards CoL. Once CoL is done, I started whipping out the half price courthouses and by 650AD, the slider's up to 40% with only half of the cities owning a courthouse or even contributing anything at all.

    FIN/ORG let me run wild in a way that I can only describe as the way you can spam like crazy on a water map if you build the GLH as soon as possible. The only difference is that with FIN/ORG, my city spam came at the expense of other civs.

    The only question for me now is do I call off the dogs, replace all that jungle with cottages and build some markets/forges/apothecaries for a while, setting up a Cannons/Rifles/Cavalry vs. Longbows endgame, or do I just keep pushing and declare some tactical wars against severely out-matched Sally and Charlie while my workers go crazy.
     
  17. Target MC

    Target MC Bad Monarch

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    USA
    It's often said that Darius I is one of the best leaders in the game. Conquest, Domination, Space Race, Diplomacy, Culture, doesn't matter what victory you go for with Darius. Because of this he tends to hold more options for you early on, and along with his good unique unit and building, he can be seen as a little OP.

    Kind of on the opposite side of leaders like Tokugawa, who is much more limited and can't hold up a good early game nearly as frequently. Ironically, the first time I won Monarch difficulty was with Tokugawa.

    You had a good starting location and viable resources. Regardless, FIN/ORG is without a doubt, one of the strongest trait combos in the game.

    ==

    People complain that IND/PHI and CRE/CHM are OP, but it can also be argued that FIN/ORG (Darius I) and AGG/CHM (Boudica) are similarly the same in that respect.

    FIN/ORG lets you run away with teching and managing a strong empire, while AGG/CHM gives you a bit more leeway in becoming a successful warmonger. Definitely two things to think about.

    IND/PHI would definitely abuse the game on early difficulty levels. Since the AI is so bad at getting wonders, you may just as well get all the wonders in the game while cranking out GP at alarming rates.

    (A 12-turn GA with National Epic and Pacifism along with the PHI trait, a big blowout to generating GP. Should the AI not crank out too many GP, you're running away in both culture and GP)

    On medium difficulties (Noble through Monarch), you can still manage to pull off a strong early going with IND/PHI, although the AI has a much better chance of being in competition against you.

    On higher difficulties (Emperor to Deity), you might as well consider IND/PHI to be on the same level as CRE/ORG, IND/ORG, IMP/IND, ORG/IMP, and the like. More likely that the AI will get more wonders and just as many if not more GP than you do. Still, despite that, IND/PHI is a solid combination, and in my opinion, about as good as FIN/ORG.

    ==

    CRE/CHM is a good combination. I don't see it as being too game-breaking like FIN/ORG, but CRE/CHM can really hold up on it's own.

    It's very tempting to try out Domination victories with the CRE/CHM trait combo. Capturing cities with the +2 culture bonus really makes a difference, you don't need to whip out Monuments. The +1 Happiness from Charismatic alone along with the +1 Happiness from Monument helps to keep your cities from turning unhappy. War unhappiness sucks, and a happiness boost from Charismatic is always welcome. Plus, with Creative, you can claim land faster than you would otherwise, making Domination a tempting path to go for.

    ==

    ORG/PRO is well, pretty average in my opinion. Certainly not a bottom-of-the-barrel trait combo, but definitely not a top notch trait combo either. Particularly because Protective is such a weak trait to have. Most of the time, you're going to want to go offensive with your troops to conquer enemy AIs/players, not so much trying to defend.

    The bonuses gained with Protective aren't enough to consider them worthwhile. Walls and Castles obsolete with Rifling and Economics respectively, and as long as your opponent has siege weapons, City Garrison I and Drill I are barely going to make a difference in the outcome of the combat odds. The City defense bonuses that are gained through Walls, Castles and the Chichen Itza wonder only give the AI more time to breach through them. Really not that useful.

    Only in a few games out of the several many I've played where I found Protective to help me. Otherwise it cannot be considered to be thrust with the likes of Financial, Organized, Creative and Industrious.

    Despite the criticisms involving Protective, I'm surprised to see that Firaxis never got around to the PRO/ORG trait combination. Since BTS was released, I always felt that the game could of used a few more leaders and maybe two-three more civilizations. IND/PHI, CRE/CHM and PRO/ORG definitely would of filled in the gap. But that would only include three additional leaders.

    PRO/ORG is overall a weak-average trait combo despite what some people would say, but that could of been countered by providing whoever leader (and civilization maybe) who gets the trait combo with a good UU and good UB. Not a bad way to keep things balanced.

    ==

    In my opinion, Spain and Japan could of used an additional leader. I never particularly liked Isabella, too much on the religious fanatical side and a real pain to deal with in most games. As for Tokugawa, he is the only leader in the game who doesn't Open Borders at cautious, and one of the few AIs who won't trade techs at cautious. Both leaders can be seen at those whom most players would prefer not having to face early on.

    So far, I hear that El Sid (Spain) and Meiji (Japan) could of been likely candidates.

    In conclusion, since Firaxis introduced more traits in the Warlords expansion, they should of just used up all the possible trait combinations where none would feel left out.

    Instead, we find that the three missing trait combos leave much to be desired. The only way to utilize them is to either play a mod that features them or work the code and programming yourself to where you are in fact, taking advantage of these trait combos.

    Very interesting to hear the opportunities that could of come out of this.
     
  18. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2007
    Messages:
    929
    Location:
    Dayton, Ohio
    I still don't see why people are saying Boudica's traits are overpowered. Charismatic is okay as a subtle economic trait (having bigger cities helps pay the bills), but I'd still much rather bring a trait like Expansive, Spiritual, or Organized to war instead of two warmongering traits at once. Boudica's good, but I don't think I'd put her in the Darius category. She can do one thing (fight wars) pretty well with lots of promotions, but by that standard Tokugawa is overpowered as well.
     
    Orion Pax likes this.
  19. Handel

    Handel Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    514
    Hunting helps a lot if you play with huts. As an added bonus you can make ivory camps in the jungle too.
     
  20. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    surrounded in the USA
    I agree that Boudica is far from overpowered. CHAR is powerful, but it's more for powering another trait, imho. At least, that's my theory for why I can't do well with her :lol:

    Even Toku is better, at least under my playstyle.
     

Share This Page