The West Bank Archipelago

[Winner]

Palestinians still have too much land and they're too dispersed. Israelis should pick the part where they have the least settlers and move all remaining Palestinians there. The Northern part looks suitable, the southern part with Hebron and Bethlehem should be annexed to Israel, as well as the Jerusalem area.

Of course it would be much easier to end this farce and remove Palestinians from the West Bank altogether, move them into neigbouring Arab countries. Then Israel would have safe and secure borders in the East and plenty of place for settlers.

Two state solution is a nonsense anyway, Palestinians have proven unable to govern themselves even as an autonomous region.

 

[Camikaze]

Palestinians still have too much land and they're too dispersed. Israelis should pick the part where they have the least settlers and move all remaining Palestinians there. The Northern part looks suitable, the southern part with Hebron and Bethlehem should be annexed to Israel, as well as the Jerusalem area.

Of course it would be much easier to end this farce and remove Palestinians from the West Bank altogether, move them into neigbouring Arab countries. Then Israel would have safe and secure borders in the East and plenty of place for settlers.

Two state solution is a nonsense anyway, Palestinians have proven unable to govern themselves even as an autonomous region.

Yay for forced relocation?

 

[Tee Kay]

Well, it worked for the Czechs.

I agree with Winner on one thing though, the two-state solution is a joke.

 

[Winner]

Yay for forced relocation?

What do you do after everything else failed? If Palestinians were nice and reasonable people, there would be some sort of compromise you can agree on to make both sides happy. But since they're mostly Hamas-voting terrorism-supporting ghetto mentality stricken fundamentalists, no compromise is possible.

Even if Israelis give them everything they want, they'll ask for more. Even if they give them their state, they won't stop trying to destroy Israel. The logical conclusion is that the Israelis should stop paying any attention to what they want and vigorously pursue their own goals, let the bleeding heart pseudo-liberals complain.

Well, it worked for the Czechs.

Yes, it did, and back in 1945 we had 1000x less reasons for doing so than the Israelis have today.

I agree with Winner on one thing though, the two-state solution is a joke.

I am gonna regret this, but what do you propose?

 

[Camikaze]

I somehow don't think attempting to move a couple of million people against their will, will help the situation.

 

[Winner]

I somehow don't think attempting to move a couple of million people against their will, will help the situation.

I somehow don't think that letting them stay and double their numbers every 30 years or so is in Israeli interest.

 

[Camikaze]

I somehow don't think that letting them stay and double their numbers every 30 years or so is in Israeli interest.

And what is in Israel's interest is in the interest of the world, or in the interest of humanity?

 

[Winner]

And what is in Israel's interest is in the interest of the world, or in the interest of humanity?

Hmmm, let me see:

Israel - a friendly country populated by people with whom I share the same basic values and somewhat similar historical experience;

Palestinians - people of an extremely alien culture whose only contribution to humankind is anti-Jewish terrorism, 8 children per couple and constant whining about being oppressed.

...

Gosh, why can't I side with the Palestinians?

 

[Tee Kay]

The problem with the two-state solution, as Winner said, is that it won't end the conflict. The Arabs would still be hostile towards Israel. Israel would still feel threatened.

Even if the Pallies stop fighting each other, independent Palestine would still be a weak state, dependent on Israel and its Arab neighbours, with few economic resources. Think East Timor. And since Israel is unwilling to make concessions on East Jerusalem, Right of Return, Settlements, Border Walls, and all that, the two-state solution is unachievable as it is unpractical.

Palestinian population transfer (around here we call that ethnic cleansing) of the West Bank would be criminal as well as unpractical. A Palestinian "North West Bank" would be an even more crippled state than the Palestine proposed in the two-state solution, and I don't see how that is much better than HAMAS' proposal to send the Jews back into the sea. Sending Palestinians over the border to Lebanon/Jordan/Egypt/Syria would be even more stupid. Those countries have enough problems of their own, none have a stable liberal democratic government, and if 60 years of Arab Palestinian dispossession have thought us anything, it's that those countries do not care about the Palestinians.

The only workable solution in the long run would be a single state, a secular Isratine or Palesrael embracing everyone. Of course this is unachievable at present stage, as this will require a revolution in social, political and economic situation and a radical mentality shift for all involved, but I don't see the two-state solution going anywhere. This could very well result in another Lebanon, but you don't see a lot of support for a separate Maronite state or a separate Shia state in Lebanon. Same applies to the Jews and Muslims in historic Palestine.

 

[RedRalph]

Oh, please... here's the sizes of their countries current populations relative to what it was in 1948 (1979 in the case of Iran)

Egypt: .5%
Tunisia: 1%
Morocco: 3%
Yemen: 1%
Syria: 1%
Iran: 25%

Wow... how accommodating.

Ehhh.... how much of that was forced and how much was voluntary?

 

[Winner]

Having Palestinians as Israeli citizens is absurd. Due to their population growth rate, they'd soon be the majority in Israel. It would destroy its Jewish character, its democracy and its prosperity.

I am pretty sure the Israelis haven't been fighting all these years to give up on their own state now (or ever).

This issue cannot be solved in peace time. It will take another big war to redraw the map of the Middle East.

 

[Tee Kay]

Having Palestinians as Israeli citizens is absurd. Due to their population growth rate, they'd soon be the majority in Israel. It would destroy its Jewish character, its democracy and its prosperity.

I am pretty sure the Israelis haven't been fighting all these years to give up on their own state now (or ever).

This issue cannot be solved in peace time. It will take another big war to redraw the map of the Middle East.

Arabs are not incompatible with democracy. Arabs are not incompatible with prosperity. As for its identity, Israel will have to choose between lasting peace or its Jewish identity. And I thought you once said Israel was supposed to be secular anyway...

 

[Winner]

Arabs are not incompatible with democracy. Arabs are not incompatible with prosperity.

Arabs as a whole are not, perhaps, but Palestinians are. They blow every chance they get to do something sensible. Giving them citizenship would be nothing short of suicide.

As for its identity, Israel will have to choose between lasting peace or its Jewish identity. And I thought you once said Israel was supposed to be secular anyway...

I mean "Jewish" in the ethnic sense of that word.

Israel is a Jewish state. If it was to be made non-Jewish, that the whole ordeal of the past 60 years would be for nothing. Jews went to Palestine to have a home, not to be the minority again, just waiting until the majority changes its mind and tries to wipe them out again.

Israelis won't do what you propose, not in a million years. Which leaves us only one possible conclusion: one of the two nations will have to make room for the other.

Harsh, but inevitable.

 

[Lone Wolf]

As for its identity, Israel will have to choose between lasting peace or its Jewish identity. And I thought you once said Israel was supposed to be secular anyway...

There is such a thing as non-religious Jewish nationalism.

 

[Arwon]

It's worth remembering that Jews and Arabs have seriously considered themselves enemies for no more than a century, and that peace, whilst not happening in the near future, has come close before. Eventually the political stars will align once more and the peace-enablers will marginalise the peace-spoilers (ie, the right wing in both countries) and an agreement will be reached. Of course it's hard, you don't make peace with your friends.

If Rabin hadn't have been assassinated in '96, if the Camp David negotiations had not have excluded any discussion of the right of return or Arafat had come back with a counter proposal instead of walking away over the right of return and excessively phased withdrawal, if the very promising Taba Summit negotiations hadn't been cut short for the election in 2001 which bought Sharon to power, if the 2002 Arab League offer for a return to the 1949 boundaries in exchange for full diplomatic normalisation had become the basis for some sort of negotiations, if Ariel Sharon hadn't have had a stroke and was able to drive through the withdrawals from the West Bank... the lost opportunities have been very frustrating.

Excessive pessimism is trendy but inaccurate.

 

[Tee Kay]

Arabs as a whole are not, perhaps, but Palestinians are. They blow every chance they get to do something sensible. Giving them citizenship would be nothing short of suicide.

I concede the Palestinian leadership are idiots. Have you ever explored Palestinian non-government initiatives for peace or local development?

I mean "Jewish" in the ethnic sense of that word.

Israel is a Jewish state. If it was to be made non-Jewish, that the whole ordeal of the past 60 years would be for nothing. Jews went to Palestine to have a home, not to be the minority again, just waiting until the majority changes its mind and tries to wipe them out again.

You could argue that with European federalism the efforts of those who fought for national gains or independence in various European wars would be for nothing in the end. I don't know about you but, um, IMHO nation states are outdated concepts. In Israel's case, it comes down to keeping an ethnically-Jewish, racist state surrounded by a sea of hostile Arabs, perhaps with an unstable, impoverished Palestinian state on its borders, or making a compromise and either accept Palestinians into their society, or give them what they want in the West Bank and Gaza. Of course, this will have to work both ways - Palestinians would have to lay down their arms and accept the reality of Jews in historic Palestine.

Israelis won't do what you propose, not in a million years. Which leaves us only one possible conclusion: one of the two nations will have to make room for the other.

Harsh, but inevitable.

What I proposed would be the best solution that could, although improbable, be achieved by peaceful means. More likely is that there's a full-scale war, ending with Israel being master of an ethnically-cleansed Palestine. Is that good for Israel? Of course. Is it right?

 

[aronnax]

I wished there will be an American President that will force Israel to withdraw to the 1967 boundaries. I wished the European nations will apply sanctions or something to show that they are willing to restore justice to the Arab people.

Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders, but all of Jerusalem can remain Israeli. Since, the "Palestinians have proven unable to govern themselves even as an autonomous region" a statement I disagree with but nonetheless, the West Bank should be ceded to Jordan. Jordan has improved greatly in terms of Human Rights, its economy and democracy since the 1948 war. While there is still much for Jordan to do, it is on the road to improve itself. Plus since Jordan already houses 3,000,000 Palestinians, I can't see the cultural harm of it. And best still, Israel can no longer harm the West Bank

 

[Winner]

Underestimating the amount of hatred between the Muslim Palestinians and Jews is also trendy and it's even more inaccurate.

Palestinians want the whole Palestine, not just the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. What sort of compromise can you make with people who want you to pack and leave your country so that they can turn it into another MidEast hellhole?

There won't be peace without another military victory, and the EU, UN, Americans and others are delusional if they think so.

 

[Winner]

I wished there will be an American President that will force Israel to withdraw to the 1967 boundaries. I wished the European nations will apply sanctions or something to show that they are willing to restore justice to the Arab people.

Sanctioning and undermining a democratic country in order to help a bunch of fundamentalists is so 1938

I hope Europe learned its lesson - if you help the bad guys, they won't be grateful, they'll just ask for more.

Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders, but all of Jerusalem can remain Israeli. Since, the "Palestinians have proven unable to govern themselves even as an autonomous region" a statement I disagree with but nonetheless, the West Bank should be ceded to Jordan. Jordan has improved greatly in terms of Human Rights, its economy and democracy since the 1948 war. While there is still much for Jordan to do, it is on the road to improve itself. Plus since Jordan already houses 3,000,000 Palestinians, I can't see the cultural harm of it. And best still, Israel can no longer harm the West Bank

Palestinians should be moved to Syria, Saudi Arabia and other rich Gulf countries. West Bank/Gaza should be annexed by Israel and settled by Jewish immigrants.

Arabs have enough land and enough money to take care of few million people. They're saying they care about them, so let's give them an opportunity to prove it.

 

[aronnax]

Underestimating the amount of hatred between the Muslim Palestinians and Jews is also trendy and it's even more inaccurate.

Palestinians want the whole Palestine, not just the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. What sort of compromise can you make with people who want you to pack and leave your country so that they can turn it into another MidEast hellhole?

There won't be peace without another military victory, and the EU, UN, Americans and others are delusional if they think so.

Im sorry, didnt you just a few post ago, suggest the explusion of Palestinians to a small northen enclave or even out of Palestine? What sort of compromise can you make with an Idea that makes people pack and leave their country so that they can turn it into another Jewish Settlement?