There are more of us than there are of them

[Senethro]

As for universalist leftists, I know who they were in my own country. They achieved a lot back in the 1970s: universal health care and a massive reduction in epidemics and childhood mortality, social security, good labour laws, public ownership of the natural monopolies and of finance, eradication of slums, etc. They achieved this for everyone. And much of this has been rolled back in recent years... I have my reasons to often be angry at contemporary politics.

Post-war they did the same in the UK and similarly there has been a reversal more recently.

Universalist leftism would be optimal imo, save for the fact that it lost its fight and doesn't know how to win again, so it is far from optimal. I don't have a solution or answers, just questions and bitterness.

At least the "identity politics" leftists are making some progress on their issues!

 

[Zardnaar]

Identity politics is a wedge issue and it creates a lot of noise and tends to overshadow the real issues.

For example our right wingers are mostly socially liberal. They passed the human rights act 1993, and don't go around revoking things like gay marriage.

That's because they are laser focus on tax cuts for the rich. It's been their focus since 1996. So yeah we have had openly gay members of parliment representing the right here. Or had they retired.

Letting gays marry doesn't cost money so they don't pick that hill to die on and I think some of the religious right here in parliament also voted on it. In interviews they said they voted to represent their district over their personal beliefs and God will sort it out later if they're wrong.

But if everyones suffering or they can narrow it down to something like abortion people will vote against their best interests as they see that single issue as their best interest.

 

[Senethro]

Now that I straight up disagree on. So called identity politics is vaccinating the general population against being manipulated by wedge issues, albeit sometimes very slowly. Taking America as an instructive example, I'm not sure you're going to get socialism while you've got a divided society at home and act as an extractor of goods, labour and value abroad. People are not invested in their neighbours welfare.

The social divisions already exist and you should not mistake the identity politics to be creating them when they are only causing a light to be shone on what is already there!

 

[Yeekim]

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still...

 

[Narz]

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.

Yup.

 

[Truthy]

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still...

No, that's not what's going on

 

[Farm Boy]

You is what people say you is, and that's all there is to it.

Tho, I gotta wonder @Hygro, what's up with "snakes and stones never broke my bones?" Sounds like some people have been kept pretty safe, largely by people they don't like? I don't know what to make of it, but I finally tracked down where it bothers me. It sounds, just, so, cliche faux European? Dunno if that's it.

 

[Akka]

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still...

Well, it certainly costs less to post a few tweets about "don't condone [x]ism, blabla, important values for us, blabla", shuffle a bit the priority on resumes you receive and replace "team building" seminaries with "diversity" seminaries, than to actually pay taxes.

Also easy and nearly free PR.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Yup.

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still...

No helping for broke brains; genuinely don't know how you can believe minority issues are a distraction when they've been ignored for years, perhaps you or Narz could explain to me how and when exactly say trans issues became a smoke screen for the global elite to cover up their crimes?

Or can we just agree this is ignorant babble?

But it's weird how quick certain people are to blame minorities and their issues for supposedly dividing people. It's 2019 and if you aren't mature enough to accept the fact that various groups have been sidelined then that speaks to your unwillingness to help others who differ from you. If someone thinks trans issues is a wedge then let me be clear, you've more in common with the people doing the oppressing then the people you claim to be allies with.

I don't want people like Narz or Yeekim or Zaardner in my midst because I have absolutely zero faith in them ever caring about my issues and i have zero faith in them not to drop said issues when it comes time to do something nor to not turn on me when they've got theirs.

There are too many people like them, too many who only care about those that do not differ from themselves.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And then they escalated. Republicans get the blame for escalation, because they're doing it right now. You just don't care. Tristan thinks Kavanaugh was 'just desserts', but it wasn't. It was a deliberate degradation of the status quo in order to seize power. Sotomayor and Kagan had super-majority confirmations.

When I pointed out both sides have consistently escalated, I didn't do so to claim that Republicans aren't escalating. Even while in power they are. 2 party FPTP setup is cursed.

What's the end-game of willfully degrading democracy?

Civil war. I'd rather not see it happen, but also don't see a way to personally influence course away from it.

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still...

Totally nothing suspicious about their money trails either.

 

[Yeekim]

@Cloud_Strife
Well... if you genuinely feel that correct pronoun-use (for example) is more important for your general well-being than the obscene wealth disparity issue that I mentioned, then... I guess I can't argue with you.

I also don't "blame minorities". I recognize that there are minority-specific issues that general public won't recognize on its own, so if you yourself won't elevate them, no one else will.

I would also never say "there are too many people like you", as I don't think it would be conducive to gaining your respect or developing a fruitful discussion.

I know you live in a weird semi-theocracy on the other side of the globe, so please remember I may be a little distant to everyday issues transpeople have to deal with in general and in US in particular. Just because I may not understand your problems does not automatically make me malevolent, however.

But I am curious whether you yourself, as trans, have never honestly felt that an issue that has been raised by someone who claims to represent trans community is actually frivolous or irrelevant or unreasonably framed?

 

[Synobun]

What if I told you you could eat the rich and use the correct pronouns at the same time?

 

[Lexicus]

Look, the phenomon Yeekim is talking about is real. Capitalists and their stooges in poltiics and the media have co-opted the language of social justice and even at times managed, in quite sophisticated ways, to frame the pursuit of egalitarian class politics as inherently opposed to the cause of feminism, anti-racism, LGBTQ+ equality, or what have you.

The proper response to this is not "these identity issues aren't really important", the proper response is "I don't like Wells Fargo no matter how much rainbow bunting they put out for Pride Week."

 

[Yeekim]

What if I told you you could eat the rich and use the correct pronouns at the same time?

One of those issues is not like the other. One requires focused social effort, comprehensive reforms and legislative changes. The other requires just two people acting reasonably and in mutual good faith.
Edit: Spoken as a proud speaker of a superior language without grammatical genders or gendered pronouns.

 

[Senethro]

Totally nothing suspicious about their money trails either.

Such as?

 

[Lexicus]

Such as?

https://www.hrc.org/hrc-story/corporate-partners

Edit: Spoken as a proud speaker of a superior language without grammatical genders or gendered pronouns.

#jealous

 

[Truthy]

Look, the phenomon Yeekim is talking about is real. Capitalists and their stooges in poltiics and the media have co-opted the language of social justice and even at times managed, in quite sophisticated ways, to frame the pursuit of egalitarian class politics as inherently opposed to the cause of feminism, anti-racism, LGBTQ+ equality, or what have you.

The proper response to this is not "these identity issues aren't really important", the proper response is "I don't like Wells Fargo no matter how much rainbow bunting they put out for Pride Week."

Exactly. Google execs get together and agree to sponsor HRC because they want to make income inequality worse.

 

[Lexicus]

Exactly. Google execs get together and agree to sponsor HRC because they want to make income inequality worse.

Sarcasm?

 

[Truthy]

Actually, yeah, let's go with that. I shouldn't be arguing on here right now
Edit: I mean not sarcasm

 

[Cloud_Strife]

@Cloud_Strife
Well... if you genuinely feel that correct pronoun-use (for example) is more important for your general well-being than the obscene wealth disparity issue that I mentioned, then... I guess I can't argue with you.

I also don't "blame minorities". I recognize that there are minority-specific issues that general public won't recognize on its own, so if you yourself won't elevate them, no one else will.

I would also never say "there are too many people like you", as I don't think it would be conducive to gaining your respect or developing a fruitful discussion.

I know you live in a weird semi-theocracy on the other side of the globe, so please remember I may be a little distant to everyday issues transpeople have to deal with in general and in US in particular. Just because I may not understand your problems does not automatically make me malevolent, however.

But I am curious whether you yourself, as trans, have never honestly felt that an issue that has been raised by someone who claims to represent trans community is actually frivolous or irrelevant or unreasonably framed?

If you're going to imply that my very real, very pressing issues are an excuse and that i am, by proxy, aiding and abetting that then don't be so shocked when i tell you to go do one okay?

My community has been ignored and what you and Mr Zaardner are claiming is that because of the very brief stint in current history where we're actually beginning to get recognition of our problems and grievances that we're somehow subtracting/distracting from the "real issues" (last time i heard getting killed because you are trans is a pretty big ****ing issue) is at best crass and deeply offensive and at worst the same sort of logic used bigots to keep us down.

Your little thoughtless salvo destroyed any attempt at developing a fruitful discussion when you came out with:

"I can't shake the feeling that a lot of minority issues are deliberately fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world.
Yes, I know, white hetero male privilege speaking. But still..."

Like how the hell would you know? People are dying, people are being killed, people are having their rights, their very lives taken away and you want to sit there, in your little armchair and pontificate about how it's being "fanned up to distract attention from the fact that a handful of people own like half of the world." like give me a goddamn break okay? And then you respond like you're somehow being mistreated because people are taking you to task over your little spiel.

When you face being fired from your job because you are cis, face being denied healthcare because of puritanical bs, when you face being attacked on the basis of who you are, then come back to me because right now all i'm hearing is the priviledged murmurings of a man who has yet to confront the fact that not everything revolves around him, you can either join the line and wait for people to grant you your dignity, humanity and rights, join me in demanding them for all of us or just do what you're doing right now and see how well that goes for you.