This is my boomstick!!!!

[Cam_H]

not sure why you invest into infra so soon

Granary in capital is mmmmm.

I hate to complain, but these are indicative of either insufficient, or worse; non-existent PPPs or equivalent outlining of ideas that haven't extended an opportunity to the roster to contribute and question some of the likely choices made by the player in the 'hot seat'. Along the same lines as the quotes, I'm not opposed to the Library build in York especially, but it's not the option I'd take ... given it's half-built, I propose we see it through.

I don't quite see the urgency for Chariots provided that we spawnbust sufficiently, but a second Worker would take some of the burden off our one guy and allow us to hook up the Horses without compromising things too much. I'm also mindful that Nottingham (when we get there) will also need a Worker to get it into shape quickly (Cows, Gold). As I say, it'd be good to have the Horses hooked up as Chariots are much more useful than Warriors, but I'd really like to ensure that our cities are working a sufficient number of improved tiles if we're focusing on Settlers and Workers.

 

[vranasm]

I hate to complain, but these are indicative of either insufficient, or worse; non-existent PPPs or equivalent outlining of ideas that haven't extended an opportunity to the roster to contribute and question some of the likely choices made by the player in the 'hot seat'. Along the same lines as the quotes, I'm not opposed to the Library build in York especially, but it's not the option I'd take ... given it's half-built, I propose we see it through.

I don't quite see the urgency for Chariots provided that we spawnbust sufficiently, but a second Worker would take some of the burden off our one guy and allow us to hook up the Horses without compromising things too much. I'm also mindful that Nottingham (when we get there) will also need a Worker to get it into shape quickly (Cows, Gold). As I say, it'd be good to have the Horses hooked up as Chariots are much more useful than Warriors, but I'd really like to ensure that our cities are working a sufficient number of improved tiles if we're focusing on Settlers and Workers.

my point was that you need some control over barb cities in case some AI goes for kill... would be very unlucky to let AI's get free good cities and barb cities are good cities because of the code underlaying their spawning

as for other points... I didn't check the number of workers etc so not sure if going with worker before settler or settler/worker right away. The "problem" here is that you're getting outexpanded on Monarch, which is not good sign.
Luckilly AI's will have now problem with barbs since every barb in the area should start to bombard AI's once you settle 3rd city (or some AI settles 4th)

I understand the issue with half built library, but
1) you can't work scientists anyway
2) the hammers will not fade until 40 turns pass and that is a lot of time to sneak in couple of workers/settler(s)

Right now don't remember exactly the regrowth power of capital, but unless you plan to whip capital a lot, it's better to grow on some units into happy cap and switch into w/s pump (at least based on my experience).
There could be argument for using some massive OF abuse into Mids with stone, but as I said not sure with the regrowth power of capital.
and if I remember right you work there cottages which complicates the case of whips even more.

edit:

I had to not comment on the game/PPP's because I played the map before and remembered some things of the map, so I have to say only things based on what you can currently see which is always a bit tough to draw the line somewhere

 

[Cam_H]

Thanks again for your well considered input and your suggestion on that Library build in York is worth some thought ... (unfortunately) whipping is prohibited by our variant rules.

 

[Killroyan]

Sorry for the meager input. Was a bit busy yesterday. I will eloborate a little more.

1) Granary in capital with no whipping is not that important. We need units first. That is why I said mmm. Warrior/worker/settler right now are better investments.
2) Cow/gold/double oasis. Yes please. We need the commerce and it is a great early city.
3) Horse city next pls. We can conquer the barb cities and we get our power rating up. In my test games I have been invaded by Alex and Monty. Thank god they are not next to us, but I still want the power rating up. We also need a lot of exploration.
4) Library in York. No problem, just finish it and then get the units going.
5) We need at least 2 more settlers from the capital if you ask me before we take a shot at the Pyramids which both Cam and I love apparantly

Ok we got the show on the road, we are not doing bad and we need land. Lets get us some

 

[woopdeedoo]

I agree with rex-ing as much as possible. My main concern with this scenario is what tech the comp is queuing for us. We may not get metals until trade later and we may also sit on the same expensive tech for ages before being allowed to trade or tech "useful" techs.

So if we don't get metals and the AI gets annoyed that we are growing too large and we have a meager power rating because only warriors and chariots, we might run into a big problem with unexpected DOW.

 

[Killroyan]

Yup, that is part of the fun We have to wait untill alphabet is teched and then we can get metals. The general idea behind the game was:

1) No early rushing except with some chariots
2) Crazy tech path but hit them with overpowered redcoats
3) No whipping to see how that goes

 

[Cam_H]

We put a turn into The Pyramids in London (fail or possible build??) for it to grow to the happy cap, and swapped York over to a Settler. London grew the next turn, and we interrupted The Pyramids for a Worker. The initial Worker built a Mine on the riverside Plains Hill, hooked up the Corn on the way to roading toward Cows-Gold-Oasis. London produced its Worker, who’s roading toward the Horses as per the request of the roster and lurker. After that, we opted for a Settler build in London. York has just finished its Settler, and could go back to the Library or could begin on another Worker or Settler. Halfway through the turnset, one of our spawnbusters beat a Barb' Archer, and now has a promotion.

Screenshots

Spoiler :

 

[Killroyan]

Huray for our valiant warrior Will check the save tonight, but sounds like a good turnset Cam. Rexing away right now. Lets see how far we can get with the mids. Failure money is still nice.

Ah screenshots are working again. I have to say it does look good. If we get cowgold online and horse city we do have 4 good cities. Even stone city in this setup is a good one. Never thought of using it that way. Great idea. I would finish the library and then get another settler from York. London finishes settler and just tries to get a few turns into the pyramids or we sneak another worker in that will start chopping like mad.

 

[CreeDakota]

We cant chop...no BWing.

I recommend we put Cottages down N and E of the Corn so london and york can share growing these.


I would not settle horses as city Number four. We have the horses now anyway and we have no pressure to settle that area versus the AI. Settle East or North first.

If we do settle horses soon a good alternative is to settle the coastal plains tile SW of London; this city can keep working our flood plains cottages incase londan goes into full mines mode to build a wonder.

The granary and Library are old builds that were in place before my turnset...they basically where started when we wanted to grow on something other than Warriors...delaying both for more settlers/workers or wonders is sound to me.

 

[Cam_H]

My thinking's very much in line with CreeDakota's: I'm not in love with the proposed production site as a priority, but happy to get it in time. I like the idea of those two 'shared' Cottages for York (when we get the chance), and certainly I think that we should expand out north and/or east ... east is the direction that I'd champion ...

The Barb's have set up in quite an unusual spot, and it infers that at least one of those three tiles in the fog contains a resource (ideally Pigs or Gems?). In light of the proposal that we should at some point start churning out Chariots to secure Barbarian cities, this Barb' city mightn't be too bad. There's a 'fair' spot to its east that's 'borderline' in terms of food, but with the two Grasslands farmed in addition to the Rice, it could be OK as a spot, with the Gold Mine there paying for its upkeep. These spots would effectively seal off the south for us.

I think there's time to get York to do another Settler or Worker before completing the Library (i.e. worrying about decay).

[Edit] Oh .. Christianity ... what's our thinking there? [/Edit]

 

[Killroyan]

By god, I feel so silly mentioning chopping. Just incredible how used to things I am playing this game. Of course we have no bronze working, hehe. So proposed plan is to get 2 more settlers out. Since we want east and north secured we have some discussion to do. First of all cow/gold/oasis. Where do we want it?

Spot 1 gives us 1 more oasis but 5 desert tiles
Spot 2 gives us 1 less oasis but more workable tiles.

About the north, what about this city?

It is on a hill, 2 good resources and at least 2 floodplains. Farm the floodplains and we have an incredible production center over there that will block the north a bit.

I swapped places with Woop last time. Woop, you are up, unless you want me to go.

 

[Cam_H]

My vote for the Gold-Cows-Oasis city goes to the more southern of the two. It picks up the second Oasis, leaves free the Grassland, and allows the first citizen to work the Oasis while the Cow Pasture's / Gold Mine's being developed. When looking at this site initially, I actually preferred immediately south of the Cows to pick up the Rice, but the proposed site works for me too.

On the northern spot, the problem with these production sites imho is they have really average commerce (either directly: like a Gold Mine, or indirectly / with potential: like 'highly cottagable'). If we're REXing, we'll be hitting some tough economic times given that Currency seems a long way away. The north site (or one near there) is very tempting, I must admit. I'm fine to go with the rest of the roster's position, and if everyone's comfortable that we can shoulder these commerce-poor spots which could be made up elsewhere, then I'm cool with that.

 

[Killroyan]

Well the northern city could get 2 cottages on the flood plains. Horses and cows also give a coin so it will not be a low commerce city. We can even cottage 4 river tiles and still go food break even. It is a very flexible town but harder to defend and we will need a lot of roads to connect it.

Were you thinking about the most eastern position in your screenshots, Cam. The one east of the barb city that can pick up gold too? I like the way you are thinking though. Sounds advice on the commerce stuff. I am always a bit sloppy and do not think too much about that, but games with you guys already showed me how much of a difference it can be.

 

[vranasm]

i would go with the gold, cow, oasis spot with these 3 tiles in 1st ring.

I know there is some S&T theory of blocking cities, but I personally don't play that much that way...I usually form some cluster around capital which grows from in towards out.

Monarch offers you a lot of time if you concentrate on rex to outexpand AIs even towards the outer cities.

I think it won't be too much of spoiler that in my shadow I expanded like hell and totally outexpanded AI's. I had some other problems then expanding in the game ;-). there is plenty of space for cities

 

[Cam_H]

(I've tried about four times to reply to these last two posts, and CivFanatics had crashed each time).

The northern site is tempting. It's a poor move in terms of city specialisation, but I'd put a Cottage on that clear south western Grassland (next to the spawnbusting Warrior) and work it nonetheless. I think that we'll need the two Floodplains and the riverside Grassland for Farms if we want to make the most of the Hills.

I also like the area to the far south east on the basis of the little that we can see ... lots of river and quite a bit of Grassland, etc. If we put a city on the proposed far eastern Plains Hill to pick up Gold-Rice-Horse, that will still leave room for other cities on the south side of the river.

vran' ... I hate to think what those problems were, but I suspect Mehmed might have been the culprit?

I still wouldn't mind a 'roster decision' on The Pyramids.

I'm not sure if we're planning to do something about Christianity when we get it (adopt it, spread it to Hatty/Roos to taunt Mehmed, don't adopt it but spread it around with No State Religion - Organised Religion, disregard it, other?).

 

[woopdeedoo]

I have been unable to log in this weekend due to my sister visiting. Let me look at the save and comment later.

 

[vranasm]

vran' ... I hate to think what those problems were, but I suspect Mehmed might have been the culprit?

the problems were much more prosaic... it had something to do with research path and techs not available.

 

[woopdeedoo]

So I went and had a look at the save. I moved the spawnbusting fortified warrior one tile over the see what barbs we are dealing with:

So three barb archers. The horses need to be pastured and roaded for quick chariots. I want to settle the oasis spot as per the SS above, 1W of the Gold. Cap is at happy cap so possibly keep pushing out settlers and workers for a while.

I also vote for switching to Christianity and OR and spamming missionaries. Maybe get a Christian lovefest going... Also if we do decide to go for the mids, it would help speed it up a little.

Hatty and Mehmed are each others' WE while Hatty and Roosy are all lovey lovey. Maybe not open any borders with Mehmed?

 

[CreeDakota]

I would rather have a settler of our own than invest in chariots to conquer that barb city. Perhaps build one chariot that can

1) steal stray workers
2) monitor if an AI stack comes and steal the city.

Diplomatically Mehmed is the biggest bruiser on the Block. We should hope for Hindu spread to chummy up to him. We could use our Missionary to infect Roosy with Christ and so some dischord. Hatty would be an even better 'heathen target but we dont know where she is.

We basically have to avoid a DOW at all costs until rifling consider 3 axemen and 3 spearmen could overrun us easily.

 

[vranasm]

for such situation you calculate with 2 chariots per archer (barbs don't get cultural defense), meaning you will lose 3 and have 3 trained for another barb city and moving towards HE.

If I remember right chariots cost 30H, so you would gain very good city for 90 hammers (less then settler) + some infrastructure (improved tiles) and maybe worker (which it would move the gain for 60H more)

gambling on letting the city to AI with only 1 chariot is foolish

another thing being that the city is somewhat close to your capital and definitely is area of interest.

btw you're on Monarch so you definitely can scare off AI's with big enough expansion and building troops.