Time to get rid of the Monarchy?

[Bugfatty300]

I'm hearing reports of people being arrested in Britain for protesting and insulting the royals? Can anyone here who voted to preserve the monarchy defend these arrests?

Have to say, as an American this stuff is very triggering. Those of you from Commonwealth countries may feel a special place in your hearts for the monarch, but we Americans have a special place in our hearts for telling monarchs to eff off when they violate our rights

IIRC Liz didn't want those laws enforced because they are terrible PR. Seems like Charles is going to be a different ruler than the old one.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Imagine if Andrew had been the older son...
He's still only one minibus or helicopter crash away from being king.

Nope. The current line of succession:

Charles
William
George
Charlotte
Louis
Harry
Archie
Lilibet
Andrew
etc.

The crown passes from parent to child in order of age, and siblings only get to inherit if their elder sibling dies childless. Every new child born pushes the rest of them down one step.

By the time they get through William's children, you get to Harry and his children, and by that time (assuming it's not a King Ralph situation where everyone is killed at once), Andrew should be safely dead. We will never need to worry about him on the throne.

I'm hearing reports of people being arrested in Britain for protesting and insulting the royals? Can anyone here who voted to preserve the monarchy defend these arrests?

Have to say, as an American this stuff is very triggering. Those of you from Commonwealth countries may feel a special place in your hearts for the monarch, but we Americans have a special place in our hearts for telling monarchs to eff off when they violate our rights

Hm. Did the Queen or Charles violate any of your rights?

I could say that they, via the Governor-General who signed off on changes to the Elections Act here in recent years, have violated my rights (my Charter rights that guarantee that disabled people can't be discriminated against). But I know it's pointless to complain to the GG or the monarch. We've had a change of GG since this happened.

 

[Lexicus]

Hm. Did the Queen or Charles violate any of your rights?

"An injury to one is an injury to all" -IWW slogan

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" -Martin Luther King, Jr.

"...any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."
-John Donne

More concretely, the King's not violating my rights because my forefathers fought a war and booted him out of my country. Perhaps it's time for Britons to do likewise (and this time do it properly).

 

[Lexicus]

IIRC Liz didn't want those laws enforced because they are terrible PR. Seems like Charles is going to be a different ruler than the old one.

How very dialectic of him

 

[JohannaK]

Does The Monarchy Benefit The UK's Economy?​

MONARCHY​

by Niall McCarthy,
Nov 23, 2017

A new report from business valuation consultancy Brand Finance has found that the British royal family is worth £67.5 billion. Even though assets such as the Crown Jewels and Buckingham Palace are worth at least £25.5 billion, much of the monarchy's revenue comes from its brand. Annually, it has an impact on the UK's economy to the tune of £1.8 billion. That includes a £550 million contribution to tourism, a £329 million crown estate surplus and a £150 million contribution to trade.

Infographic: Does The Monarchy Benefit The UK's Economy?

This chart shows the annual contribution of the monarchy to the UK economy in 2017.

www.statista.com

The funny thing about all this is that you don't need to keep the monarchy around to keep estates and crown jewels around.

 

[JohannaK]

I'd say just wait till end of 2022 and see what Charles makes of himself as Charles III...

This is just like when you know Elizabeth herself was made Queen when her father died... Just like now there was talk of British Empire falling and people being skeptical about her ability as a monarch.
Or heck how Queen Victoria died and then Prince Albert took over as Edward VII...
If British monarch has been able to survive so far I don't see it going anytime soon.
COMMONWEALTH although is whole different matter entirely.

The Queen received the news of his father's death while in Kenya, then part of the Empire. Today, only the Commonwealth remains to remind us of its existence. So yeah, Queen Elizabeth II reigned over the fall of the British Empire. Let's hope our talk of UK dissolution similarly occurs during his son's hopefully brief reign.

 

[drewisfat]

I'm hearing reports of people being arrested in Britain for protesting and insulting the royals? Can anyone here who voted to preserve the monarchy defend these arrests?

Have to say, as an American this stuff is very triggering. Those of you from Commonwealth countries may feel a special place in your hearts for the monarch, but we Americans have a special place in our hearts for telling monarchs to eff off when they violate our rights

?? That's not specific to royalty or even to the UK. Here's the relevant law in my state of (Floriduh): A person may not knowingly engage in protest activities or knowingly cause protest activities to occur within 500 feet of the property line of a residence, cemetery, funeral home, house of worship, or other location during or within 1 hour before or 1 hour after the conducting of a funeral or burial at that place.

And for the technical argument of "that wasn't a funeral" -
As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Funeral or burial” means a service or ceremony offered or provided in connection with the final disposition, memorialization, interment, entombment, or inurnment of human remains or cremated human remains.

I would actually defend the right of the police to arrest someone heckling a funeral procession. There's far worse anti-protest behavior and legal abuse on the books, e.g. "disrupting traffic" or "don't have a permit".

 

[Takhisis]

You make it sound like as if UK doesn't have elected leader...

You make it sound as if you didn't know how the polity known as ‘United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland’ and those of the other countries in a personal union with it work.

 

[JohannaK]

They've trimmed the Civil List quite a bit over the years. The Queen's grandchildren all got real jobs (yes, even William and Harry).



Dunno about the UK. Constitutional stuff is a headache in Canada.



Constitutional chaos, at least in Canada. Our constitution was repatriated 40 years ago and Quebec still hasn't signed on because Pierre Trudeau wouldn't declare them a "distinct society" and a bunch of other reasons. Some of the Conservative premiers wanted a bunch of concessions that included changing the anthem to the point where it basically meant that only Christian men were patriotic, and women and non-Christians weren't. Well, they finally fixed the sexist part of that. Fix the religious bias, and I can finally sing it with a clear conscience, as I have not been able to do for over 40 years.

Trying to get 10 provinces and 3 territories to agree on anything is basically impossible, even if it's just when to have lunch. Changing the Constitution to eliminate the monarchy and decide what to do about the GG, the provincial L-Gs, and a gazillion other institutions and countless political and cultural things that make our country tick is asking more than anyone is willing to give.



This is funny in a sad way, since you are part of a forum that's dedicated to a game that includes Monarchy as a form of government, and King is one of the forum ranks which you had at one time, even if you had a different usertitle.

Any of the anti-monarchists here a fan of any TV series or movie that includes some element of monarchy? If you say no, I've got a BS flag smiley I'm not sure I'd be allowed to post.

I'm not saying the British monarchy is perfect - it's far from perfect. But it's helped to provide stability for centuries, and it's at least partly influenced the culture and history, for better or worse, of nearly every country on the planet.

My life would be very different today if I hadn't spent 12 years in the Society for Creative Anachronism, which was founded by a group of writers and historians in 1966, all of whom were interested in monarchy and medieval history.

For one thing, I'd never have learned to play Civ, so I'd never have come to this forum.

For two things, there's a host of other things I'd never have learned, people I'd never have met, subjects I'd never have become interested in, things I'd never have done, and I think my life would have been much less interesting.

I realize that monarchy can be brutal if the monarch literally has the power of life and death over the people, as is still the case in some parts of the world. I guess I tend to consider it from the political perspective in Canada, and the historical, literary, and artistic perspective of the SCA. I may never have met the Queen of England, but I spent an evening with the King and Queen of An Tir, sitting on the floor of someone's living room, watching the premiere of Star Trek: The Next Generation with about 30 other people, most of us still in our costumes.



I never felt they were inherently superior to every other human being alive. I've seen Princess Margaret, and wasn't impressed (she was in Red Deer for a whistle stop event that resulted in something or other being named for her). Her visit was actually rather inconvenient since security had roped off the middle of downtown hours before she was due to arrive, which meant I wasn't allowed into the library to return my books. I guess I should ask Charles to pay me back for the fine I was dinged with.

Funny thing I noticed a long time ago about the Americans... they rejected being ruled by the British monarch, but over time, they created their own version of royalty, in the form of Hollywood actors and actresses, sports figures, and charismatic politicians. After all, aren't those who reach the top of the heap referred to as the "King" of whatever, or the "Queen" of whatever? Funny nomenclature for people who hate everything monarchical...

It is funny in a sad way, since you are part of a forum dedicated to a game which has Republic as a form of government.

 

[Takhisis]

At leaat they're elected instead of getting the job by being the right member of an inbred family of Germans

cofcoftrumpcofcof

 

[Takhisis]

The funny thing about all this is that you don't need to keep the monarchy around to keep estates and crown jewels around.

True, the French still have the Louvre, Versailles, Tuilleries, and the fleurs-de-lis everywhere.

The Monarchy is a beautiful tradition. It's disgusting that so many people here want to see it go.

So why don't you have a monarchy? You're giving me the same vibe that those enlightened Europeans give us when they shelter picturesque revolutionaries and discuss theoretical marxism or nationalism or third-world whateverism while ignoring the butchery those people perpetrate, like the picturesue cleric Ruhollah Khomeini or schoolteacher Abimael Guzmán.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Some here can't seem to distinguish between power and influence that come from being popular versus power and influence that is backed by the state.

 

[Lexicus]

?? That's not specific to royalty or even to the UK. Here's the relevant law in my state of (Floriduh): A person may not knowingly engage in protest activities or knowingly cause protest activities to occur within 500 feet of the property line of a residence, cemetery, funeral home, house of worship, or other location during or within 1 hour before or 1 hour after the conducting of a funeral or burial at that place.

And for the technical argument of "that wasn't a funeral" -
As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Funeral or burial” means a service or ceremony offered or provided in connection with the final disposition, memorialization, interment, entombment, or inurnment of human remains or cremated human remains.

I would actually defend the right of the police to arrest someone heckling a funeral procession. There's far worse anti-protest behavior and legal abuse on the books, e.g. "disrupting traffic" or "don't have a permit".

There have, afaik, been people arrested nowhere near anything that could be called a "funeral or burial" under the terms of that law. In any case it seems disingenuous to pretend that a royal funeral held as a public event at state expense should be treated similarly to the funeral of a private citizen. Is the whole UK to be treated as a funeral site for the next six weeks? Seems quite silly if so.

I will also remember your principled stand for the police arresting funeral protesters for when Putin croaks. Should anyone protest his funeral with uncouth mentions of dead Ukrainians I will expect you to defend their arrests as well.

 

[Takhisis]

Some here can't seem to distinguish between power and influence that come from being popular versus power and influence that is backed by the state.

In a monarchy, the monarch is the state.

As I already wrote at length on a couple of days ago, all power is in the hands of the monarch him- or herself unless explicitly delegated to another government institution.
And thus, for example, the executive uses the royal prerogative to escape public scrutiny and parliamentary debate whenever it feels that it needs to.

 

[Bugfatty300]

There have, afaik, been people arrested nowhere near anything that could be called a "funeral or burial" under the terms of that law. In any case it seems disingenuous to pretend that a royal funeral held as a public event at state expense should be treated similarly to the funeral of a private citizen. Is the whole UK to be treated as a funeral site for the next six weeks? Seems quite silly if so.

I will also remember your principled stand for the police arresting funeral protesters for when Putin croaks. Should anyone protest his funeral with uncouth mentions of dead Ukrainians I will expect you to defend their arrests as well.

If the Royals want to be treated like private citizens they should get out of the monarchy buisness.

 

[Takhisis]

If the Royals want to be treated like private citizens they should get out of the monarchy buisness.

*drafts bill of attainder*

 

[drewisfat]

There have, afaik, been people arrested nowhere near anything that could be called a "funeral or burial" under the terms of that law. In any case it seems disingenuous to pretend that a royal funeral held as a public event at state expense should be treated similarly to the funeral of a private citizen. Is the whole UK to be treated as a funeral site for the next six weeks? Seems quite silly if so.

I will also remember your principled stand for the police arresting funeral protesters for when Putin croaks. Should anyone protest his funeral with uncouth mentions of dead Ukrainians I will expect you to defend their arrests as well.

I was replying to the video posted... I guess it was by Kyriakos. If you've got some other tangible examples of free speech being violated go ahead. Why would the a royal funeral procession not be protected? It's both disrupting an event and harassing a grieving family. Only thing disingenuous is pretending that procession is taking place in the entirety of the UK simultaneously.

 

[Lexicus]

I was replying to the video posted... I guess it was by Kyriakos. If you've got some other tangible examples of free speech being violated go ahead. Why would the a royal funeral procession not be protected? It's both disrupting an event and harassing a grieving family. Only thing disingenuous is pretending that procession is taking place in the entirety of the UK simultaneously.

You replied to my post, not Kyriakos'. I again reject the claim that the royal funeral should be treated like a private funeral. And the reports I'm referring to include two individuals arrested while Charles was being proclaimed king, not during any kind of funeral-related events for Elizabeth II. Another woman was arrested while holding up a sign outside the houses of Parliament.

Police In The UK Have Arrested Activists For Protesting The British Monarchy

Police also arrested a man who yelled, "You're a sick old man!" at Prince Andrew during the Queen's funeral procession in Edinburgh.

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[EnglishEdward]

If there are a crowd of people at a posssibly lawful celebration, demonstration, funeral, march, parade or procession etc;
and other people turn up with the sole intention of insulting them and making trouble; there are two likely outcomes:

(a) the smaller or weaker group get beaten up' OR
(b) police arrest the disruptive ring leaders

It is the Order bit of "Law and Order".

The application of the Law bit comes later.

And if those arrested, or their solicitors, can make a good case that there was
no significant danger of public disorder e.g. a riot; those arrested get released.

 

[drewisfat]

@Lexicus Ok there's a few more examples to dig into there:
In Scotland, police arrested a woman holding a sign that said "fudge imperialism, abolish the monarchy" outside St. Giles' Cathedral in Edinburgh, where Queen Elizabeth II's coffin is lying at rest
- where her coffin is, being the key there.
The police did mention her behavior and not her sign was the issue, so there's more to the story there. Either the police are telling the truth or they messed up and she was fine standing at the spot she was standing and are covering for themselves.

The guy who got arrested during a county proclamation in Oxford certainly looks like the police screwed up, complete with the hilarious word "de-arrested" when they were called out on it lol.

My point was to say that actually in America we have very little rights in practice when it comes to protesting. I think it's a very big problem and I didn't like (as it appeared to me) that a video of a heckler being led away from a funeral was being used as a red herring example. It was in reply to your post and you did like it, so please forgive me dearly for conflating your post with it.