1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Timelines, Dates and Eras

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    926
    You won't be able to lock the system to the same number of turns per era. You would need a completely balanced number of techs as well as the amount of research points required tied to how much RP civs are producing during those eras. i.e. If the total research points for each era were 1000 (just to use an arbitrary number) and you produced 20 RP in the classical era per turn, you would complete the era in 50 turns. But if you set the Renaissance period to 50 turns, even if the RP total were again 1000, you would also have to produce at the exact same 20 RP per turn to make that 50 turn setting. Of course, in reality, the number of RP needed per era is NOT the same, and the amount of RP produced fluctuates quite a bit and will continue to as long as new buildings are introduced and tweaked.

    It gets more complicated when you then consider game speeds.

    Basically the best measure at the moment is just to play and see how long it takes to move to each era on Snail (which seems the most balanced) and then use that as the standard upon which to build the model.

    This is something I've been documenting for myself lately to try and address this. To be honest though, I haven't had a lot of time to play the game lately, so Praetyre if you want to adopt that baby, by all means. :)

    For my game, I reached the Ancient Age on turn 580, Classical at 841, and Medieval at 1022. I haven't gotten to Renaissance yet. This is actually playing and not auto-play, which I felt might not be the "most accurate" for how a player would progress.
     
  2. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    942
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    What I tend to do with my playtests is see how fast I max out Prehistoric (as an aggreggate total :science: number, for all intents and purposes, adding additional techs researched past Prehistoric to this tally) and adjust the tech costs accordingly until I get the numbers I want. Main complication is the role of population growth, which hasn't been fully and properly simulated (with plagues, disasters et. al yet), and naturally plays a significant role in research output (I've been meaning to suggest that the later settler units should found bigger settlements, and in turn that the thresholds for the admin and other corresponding buildings be increased to account for my new number system, but that's a discussion for another time...).
     
  3. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    Don't forget starting location. This has a big factor on how fast you progress. Sometimes you get a good spot while other times like in my current game I was in a cold land of ice and snow with very little green to settle cities in. This ment I was drastically behind compared to the other civs due to extremely slow city growth.

    I suspect if we put in the nomad features then this will be even more pronounced since when you settle could be an issue. Then again luck, events and who your next to also plays a big factor. Which is one reason I love this mod. It is never the same game, even if you play from the same saved game.
     
  4. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    20,571
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    MN
    I really really want the Nomad stuff included, its great if then the camps could MOVE also, i really really really like that, like with the old Mongolians used to do.
     
  5. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    942
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    My assumption was that research could still be carried out under a Nomadic system, else the whole Prehistoric era and Sedentary Lifestyle shift doesn't make a great deal of sense.
     
  6. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    9,254
    Actually, I find starting location has much LESS effect than it ever did in Vanilla BtS (though obviously it still has some effect), because such a high proportion of your food and hammers arise from buildings. There is a slight chicken-and-egg issue if you are stuck with a really poor location, but certainly by a couple eras in it ceases to make much difference provided you can find ONE source for each of a few critical resources SOMEWHERE in your empire.
     
  7. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2011
    Messages:
    3,418
    Starting as Nomads would require quite a lot of changes (mechanics, AI, balance, ...) so if we go for it, I would suggest making it a focus of modder effort for a version.
     
  8. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,575
    If the Nomad becomes a reality my suggestion would be that up until a certain point in the game NO cities grow in population. That way there's no penalty for settling later than other civilizations.
    A good place would be when the first civ reaches Sedentary Lifestyle really but that would also make the whole Prehistoric Era (and part of the Ancient Era) all about being Nomads. A more viable place would then be Shelter Building, though that doesn't give it enough time really.
    That, for me, leaves the tech when the first Housing building can be built, if Grass Huts aren't counted.

    To keep people (and AI's) interested in staying as Nomads during this time some bonuses to science and hammers could be given when having no settled cities. A fair warning should be given to all when settling becomes viable though as despite having more science and hammers the loss of not growing in pop will make it hard to catch up in tech/production later on.

    During a Nomad Phase I also suggest dropping explored plots while also having an increased visibility on units. People are used to keeping a check on a larger area when not settled but areas that were explored or traversed hundreds or thousands of years (1-5 turns) ago would not stay in the collective. As legends maybe, but no more than that.

    I also suggest dropping both upkeep/maintenance costs and gold income during any Nomad Phase. Should be simple enough via a Nomad Civic. If trading was done it'd be via bartering after Barter, though that would be a whole other can of worms I suppose.

    Would a civilization be able to have more than one Nomad Unit? If so would that/those extra Nomad unit/s be able to choose between settling a new city when settling become available and adding population to an existing city? If so then staying Nomad could be viable even when settling becomes available.

    Anyway; I could keep suggesting but as it's not my mod I'm leaving this subject for now.
    With a Nomad start though starting location would have an even less effect as everyone would have some extra turns to find a good location to finally settle in.

    Cheers
     
  9. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Messages:
    926
    Ah. Well if changing the research costs is an option, then that would help, but it would still require a lot of tinkering and testing. Not that any other method won't mind you! :p

    I just felt the easiest the implement would be to see how many turns it takes on average now (not a beeline, but also not getting ALL techs prior to the era change) and then adjust the turns and years to get it as close to those historical markers we had talked about in the other thread a few months ago.
     
  10. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    942
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    After careful consideration (and noticing two major errors in my reckoning of the total turn count), I've decided to revise the Eternity template speed. The original plan actually has 13,200 turns, not 11,800. Furthermore, the double length of the industrial era necessitates an extra 500 turns to make Snail halved in increments and still 6000, putting the length of this new plan at 12,500 turns. The revisions are as follows;

    Prehistoric (200,000/50,000 BC-10,000 BC)

    I'm open to either start, and so is my model. Both are 1000 turns, with the former netting you 190 years per turn and the latter 40 years per turn. Your choice. The end date is changed not only for roundness, but to account for the role the Neolithic plays in the Ancient tech tree.

    Ancient (10,000 BC-800 BC)

    I needed to make cuts to fit all of my era plans within the 12500 turn limit, and the Neolithic/Chalcolithic was where I felt I could most afford to make such cuts. So, that subera now occupies 200 turns, 35 years per turn. Not the smoothest time transition, but adopting a Sedentary Lifestyle does weird things to a society. The bulk of the era is beefed up to cover more territory, both in terms of chronology and turns, while keeping it's integers. Also, it's much, much easier to divide 2200 into a half that will fill a decent, rounded amount of turn space than 1100. So without further ado, the Bronze Age is 3000 BC-800 BC, which means it will be 1100 turns, 2 years per turn.

    Classical (800 BC-500)

    Well, it turns out my ideas about Classical antiquity weren't quite as solid as I believed. Most scholars reckon the period actually starts around the time of Homer and Rome, not Aristotle and Buddha. This actually fits better as far as Meditation, Philosophy and other such techs sit in the tech tree, so the lions share of my extra 300 turns goes to this era. 1300 turns, 1 year per turn

    Medieval (500-1500)

    Unaltered. 1000 turns, 1 year per turn.

    Renaissance (1500-1850)

    Ditto. 1400 turns, 3 months per turn

    Industrial (1850-1950)

    No changes. 2600 turns, 2 weeks per turn.

    Modern (1950-2000)
    Once again, no changes. 1300 turns, 2 weeks per turn.

    Transhuman (2000-2050)
    Is this double or triple deja vu? You decide. 1300 turns, 2 weeks per turn.

    Space (2050-2100)
    Halved to keep consistency with the previous two eras and to free up room for Ancient, Classical and Industrial. That comes out to 1300 turns, 2 weeks per turn.
     
  11. Gregori

    Gregori Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    32
    Location:
    European Union
    gorgeous plan.
    so is this for eternity, or for a snail?
     
  12. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Messages:
    6,914
    Location:
    Deva Loka
    I believe it is for a speed above Eternity.
    Also, do we really need an Industrial that long? It could perhaps be about 75% of that and still work.
     
  13. Flinx

    Flinx Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    455
    It's on the first line of Praetyre's post.
    So if you read carefully you would have got the information at once.
    Sometimes i ask myself if you guys do even read an entire post.
     
  14. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Time Traveller

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    7,683
    Location:
    Poland
    Only ~11000 turns? Snail speed have ~14000 turns, and good idea.
     
  15. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,575
    Looking at this again I'm struck by a thought and realization of what I'd be looking for in terms of turns per era:
    Each new era reached should in my opinion last a few more turns than the previous era.

    Right now I only have three arguments as to why:
    1. Game play. New buildings and units become available faster and more often with each step up in the tech tree and era one comes. To get a better unit/building after 20 turns when higher up in the eras basically means one has to spend more time upgrading and building than using them. Early on a Stone Axeman lasts several hundred turns, as does an Archer. A Light Horseman doesn't, and neither do lots of other unit types around that era. Castles are fun but obsolete way too fast once one has them.

    2. Game feeling. For me at least the feel of the game and it's pace matters. Once Ancient Era is done everything feels like it comes at once. This could of course also be due to the massive boost in tech one can get to around that time too though. Either way more time in the Classical Era, and then more time again in the Medieval, and then more time again in the Renaissance, and then... and so on, would feel right as you would have more time each era than in the previous one for strategics, tactics, building up, and so on, as well as being given more time to use those units and buildings that become available.

    3. That's the way I like it. That's the way I like it.

    Cheers
     
  16. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2006
    Messages:
    20,571
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    MN
    Sounds like a plan to me an even a good one really, cause from Classical to Renaissance they do go by fast, but after Renaissance its alot slower, in my opinion, because the amount of units that building that are being produced.
     
  17. Gregori

    Gregori Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    32
    Location:
    European Union
    As for me, I am a very big fan of the mod, so damn big, so I go as deep as playing it on hot seat with gian map, with 20 civs, all controlled by me, with maraphon speed.

    And basically the cool part of the game without AI, is that first of all, you do really gameplay in a rolepay manner, with all possible roleplay things such as trade, esspionage and proper and logical use of units with hidden nationalities, casus beli and stock market for corporations, etc.

    But another cool part is that you can slow down the speed of development. Lowering the science investment for each of the civs that are controlled by human (all of them are), making speed of scientific development go slower, but the speed of construction and all other areas go in maraphon speed. Or just totaly abandoning the scince progress, if u really enjoy some particular historical era, sort of switching the time off by canceling research for all of the civilizations.

    So the message is folowing - in hotseat, with controll over all of the civs in your game, you are time master :)
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    16,281
    Location:
    California, USA
    @Gregori

    That's quite a unique way to play. But I would think that the barbarians are still controlled by the AI right?
     
  19. SouthernKing

    SouthernKing crickety cricket

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Messages:
    6,914
    Location:
    Deva Loka
    I should really try something like this sometime :)
     
  20. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    942
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    This also goes for BlueGenie's point; check post #17. There are significant complexities involved in balancing these era numbers, and having progressively increasing era lengths would require a great deal of care and planning in this area. Let's say we go for a straight doubling;

    Spoiler :
    Prehistoric- 1k
    Ancient- 2k (3k total)
    Classical- 4k (7k total)
    Medieval- 8k (15k total)


    What about a 50% rate of increase?

    Spoiler :
    Prehistoric- 1k
    Ancient- 1500 (Total 2500)
    Classical- 2250 (Total 4750)
    Medieval- 3375 (Total 8125)
    Renaissance- 3375 can't be divided in two so it's moot


    A simple lump increase of 500?

    Spoiler :
    Prehistoric- 1k
    Ancient- 1500 (Total 2500)
    Classical- 2000 (Total 4500)
    Medieval- 2500 (Total 7000)
    Renaissance- 3000 (Total 10,000)
    Industrial- 3500 (Total 13,500)


    250 lump?

    Spoiler :
    Prehistoric- 1k
    Ancient- 1250 (Total 2250)
    Classical- 1500 (Total 3750)
    Medieval- 1750 (Total 5500)
    Renaissance- 2000 (Total 7500)
    Industrial- 2250 (Total 9750)
    Modern- 2500 (Total 12250


    This isn't even considering whether's it's actually possible to get those time periods in that amount of turns, nor the brain exploding weirdness nonlinear models could bring. On that former point, though, let's look at Industrial;

    Industrial lasts for 100 years.
    My plan aims to have no era shorter than 1000 turns.

    This excludes anything longer than 1 month per turn as an interval. So how does that play?

    1 month per turn= 1200 turns
    3 weeks per turn= Can't be divided
    2 weeks per turn= 2600 turns
    1 week per turn= 5200 turns

    So, basically, our only option for shortening is reverting to 1 month per turn, which not only A; Doesn't really fit that well with the era or it's atmosphere and B; Ignores the fact the era is somewhat of an amalgamation of two seperate time periods, both of which were highly eventful, well documented, revolutionary and, I suspect, very popular with most Civ players, but it also C; leaves us with 1400 turns left over, which will have to go to some other era(s) instead.

    At my last count, Snail is slightly less than 10,000 turns. My plan would put it down to 6000.
     

Share This Page