Timelines, Dates and Eras

[Koshling]

Be careful, some people like me turn options off that include technologies so what you think is redundant may not be. I play with Advance Economy off, which means that a number of techs, like Insurance, are not in my tech tree. I must try it some time.

It's more or less harmless anyway. It slightly increases AI processing times, but it's a tiny effect.

 

[Vokarya]

Be careful, some people like me turn options off that include technologies so what you think is redundant may not be. I play with Advance Economy off, which means that a number of techs, like Insurance, are not in my tech tree. I must try it some time.

I know about Advanced Economy and Meteorology options turning off techs. I did this once before in AND and I did pick up on one in the Industrial Era (Stock Brokering - Marxism.) Are there any other options that actually turn off a tech? I looked through the XML file for <PrereqGameOption>.

 

[Vokarya]

Pls post them.

OK, here they are, broken up by era:

Prehistoric Era:

Spoiler :

• Boat Building (Carpentry + Tanning + Trap Fishing): Remove Carpentry (Carp – Tribalism – Hunting – Tanning)
• Ceremonial Burial (Bead Making + Shamanism + Stone Building): Remove Stone Building (SB – Tribalism – Shamanism)
• Naturopathy (Poison Crafting + Ritualism): Remove Ritualism (Ritual – Cultural Identity – Tribalism – Hunting – Poison Crafting)
• Sewing (Bone Working + Personal Adornment + Weaving): Remove Bone Working (BW – Personal Adornment)

Ancient Era:

Spoiler :

• Agriculture (Livestock Domestication + Sedentary Lifestyle + Slash and Burn): Remove Livestock Domestication (LD – Sedentary Lifestyle)
• Ancestor Worship (Ceremonial Burial + Pottery): Remove Ceremonial Burial (CB – Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery)
• Fermentation (Agriculture + Orchards + Pottery): Remove Agriculture (Agriculture – Apiculture – Orchards AND Agriculture – Pottery)
• Folk Dance (Mysticism + Prehistoric Dance): Remove Prehistoric Dance (PD – Ritualism – Cultural Identity – Tribalism – Shamanism – Ceremonial Burial – Mysticism)
• Folk Music (Mysticism + Prehistoric Music): Remove Prehistoric Music (PM – Ritualism – Cultural Identity – Tribalism – Shamanism – Ceremonial Burial – Mysticism)
• Masonry (Mining + Sedentary Lifestyle): Remove Sedentary Lifestyle (SL – Agriculture – Pottery – Mining)
• Megalith Construction (Mysticism + Slavery + Stone Building): Remove Stone Building (SB – Tribalism – Shamanism – Ceremonial Burial – Mysticism)
• Military Training (Bronze Working + Chiefdom): Remove Chiefdom (Chiefdom – Sedentary Lifestyle – Archery – Copper Working – Metal Casting – Bronze Working)
• Orchards (Agriculture + Apiculture): Remove Agriculture (Agriculture – Apiculture)
• Plough (Agriculture + Copper Working + Equine Domestication): Remove Agriculture (Agriculture – Pottery – Mining – Copper Working)
• Polytheism (Dualism + Masonry + Priesthood + Sacrifice Cult): Remove Priesthood (Priesthood – Dualism)
• Pottery (Agriculture + Barter): Remove Barter (Barter – Slavery – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture)
• Sacrifice Cult (Livestock Domestication + Mysticism + Sedentary Lifestyle): Remove Livestock Domestication (LD – Sedentary Lifestyle) AND Remove Mysticism (Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle)
• Sailing (Boat Fishing + Sewing + Trade): Remove Sewing (Sewing – Tanning – Livestock Domestication – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery – The Wheel – Trade)
• Sculpture (Ceremonial Burial + Masonry): Remove Ceremonial Burial (CB – Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery – Mining – Masonry)
• Seafaring (Naval Warfare + Piracy): Remove Naval Warfare (NW – Piracy)
• Sedentary Lifestyle (Carpentry + Chiefdom + Livestock Domestication + Megalith Construction): Remove Carpentry (Carp – Tribalism - Shamanism - Ceremonial Burial – Mysticism – Megalith Construction)
• Stargazing (Ancestor Worship + Mysticism): Remove Mysticism (Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery – Ancestor Worship)
• Trade (Livestock Domestication + The Wheel): Remove Livestock Domestication (LD – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery – The Wheel)

Classical Era:

Spoiler :

• Ancient Ballistics (Bronze Working + Construction + Oil Lamps + Ship Building): Remove Bronze Working (BW – Monarchy – Construction)
• Ancient Medicine (Code of Laws + Gardening + Naturopathy): Remove Naturopathy (Nat – Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery – The Wheel – Trade – Writing – Monarchy – Code of Laws)
• Astrology (Calendar + Stargazing): Remove Stargazing (Star – Sundial – Calendar)
• City Planning (Monarchy + Writing): Remove Writing (Writing – Monarchy)
• Code of Laws (Monarchy + Writing): Remove Writing (Writing – Monarchy)
• Construction (Masonry + Mathematics + Monarchy): Remove Masonry (Masonry – Monotheism – Monarchy)
• Democracy (Alphabet + Code of Laws + Currency + Mathematics + Monarchy): Remove Monarchy (Monarchy – Code of Laws)
• Insurance (Code of Laws + Currency + Trade): Remove Trade (Trade – Writing – Currency)
• Iron Working (Bronze Working + Lead Working + Monarchy): Remove Bronze Working (BW – Monarchy)
• Monarchy (Bronze Working + Monotheism + Writing): Remove Writing (Writing – Monotheism)
• Mounted Archery (Archery + Horse Breeding): Remove Archery (Archery – Copper Working – Metal Casting – Bronze Working – Military Training – Horse Breeding)
• Poetry (Drama + Literature): Remove Literature (Lit – Drama)
• Spice Trade (Calendar + Salt Processing + Trade): Remove Trade (Trade – Writing – Mathematics – Calendar)
• Weather Lore (Cloud Patterns + Mathematics + Philosophy): Remove Mathematics (Math – Philosophy)

Medieval Era:

Spoiler :

• Acoustics (Architecture + Education + Music): Remove Architecture (Arch – Stained Glass – Education)
• Agricultural Tools (Agriculture + Feudalism + Floristry + Machinery): Remove Agriculture (Agri – Plough – Irrigation – Gardening – Floristry)
• Armored Cavalry (Armor Crafting + Elephant Riding + Feudalism + Invention + Smithing + Stirrup): Remove Feudalism (Feudalism – Armor Crafting) AND Remove Smithing (Smithing – Armor Crafting)
• Civil Service (Code of Laws + Feudalism + Mathematics): Remove Code of Laws (CoL – Feudalism)
• Compass (Iron Working + Sailing + (Clockworks OR Education)): Remove Iron Working (IW – Siege Warfare – Machinery – Engineering – Invention – Clockworks OR IW – Siege Warfare – Machinery – Engineering – Architecture – Stained Glass – Education)
• Crop Rotation (Agriculture + Calendar + Feudalism + Floristry): Remove Agriculture (Agri – Plough – Irrigation – Gardening – Floristry)
• Engineering (Construction + Machinery): Remove Construction (Const – Ancient Ballistics – Siege Warfare – Machinery)
• Fundamentalism (Sacrifice Cult + Theology): Remove Sacrifice Cult (SC – Monotheism – Monarchy – Code of Laws – Theology)
• Mountaineering (Engineering + Invention): Remove Engineering (Engineering – Invention)
• Whaling (Oil Lamps + Optics): Remove Oil Lamps (OL – Ancient Ballistics – Siege Warfare – Machinery – Engineering – Invention – Optics)

I will admit that some of these will look very odd (Sedentary Lifestyle is really the only prerequisite for Sacrifice Cult), but I think that a requirement that never is actually going to come up in a game isn't really a requirement. You could also tweak some prerequisites in another direction. If you removed Sedentary Lifestyle from Sacrifice Cult, it would work fine as Livestock Domestication + Mysticism.

 

[DRJ]

I somehow like (at least some of) the redundant prerequisites because they often tell a 'story' of what combination of technologies enabled something. If the tech path is redundant in civ it doesn't really mean it was like that in real history.

Look at your Fundamentalism example

• Fundamentalism (Sacrifice Cult + Theology): Remove Sacrifice Cult (SC &#8211; Monotheism &#8211; Monarchy &#8211; Code of Laws &#8211; Theology)[/*]

As player reading it needs sacrifical cult and theology is just sounds reads more spicy than just theology. Because of that gameplay flavor, for instance, playing civ becomes more than just managing numbers. I understand your logic but do not neglect the charm of a game...

 

[Vokarya]

I somehow like (at least some of) the redundant prerequisites because they often tell a 'story' of what combination of technologies enabled something. If the tech path is redundant in civ it doesn't really mean it was like that in real history.

Look at your Fundamentalism example



As player reading it needs sacrifical cult and theology is just sounds reads more spicy than just theology. Because of that gameplay flavor, for instance, playing civ becomes more than just managing numbers. I understand your logic but do not neglect the charm of a game...

I think it's a problem to have redundant technologies because it's misleading. Technologies display "Leads to..." on the mouseover and that could lead to someone wrongly sacrificing a short-term gain in pursuit of a long-term gain that isn't real due to the tree redundancy.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's my list of tech redundancies for the Renaissance and Industrial Eras. I'm working my way through the Modern Era now.

Renaissance Era:

Spoiler :

• Corporation (Constitution + Economics): Remove Constitution (Con – Divine Right – Mercantilism – Economics)
• Gunpowder (Education + Guilds + Invention): Remove Guilds (Guilds – Paper – Education)
• Humanism (Drama + Music + Political Philosophy + Printing Press): Remove Drama (Drama – Music)
• Jurisprudence (Divine Right + Political Philosophy): Remove Political Philosophy (PP – Divine Right)
• Mercantilism (Banking + Divine Right + Drug Trade + Navigation): Remove Banking (Banking – Political Philosophy – Divine Right)
• Microbiology (Biology + Optics): Remove Optics (Optics – Astronomy – (Astrolabe – Navigation – Mercantilism – Economics OR Physics) – Scientific Method – Biology)
• Navigation (Astrolabe + Cartography + Ship Building): Remove Ship Building (SB – Ancient Ballistics – Siege Warfare – Machinery – Engineering – Invention – Clockworks – Astrolabe)
• Photography (Chemistry + Optics + Physics + Printing Press): Remove Optics (Optics – Astronomy – Physics)
• Printing Press (Literature + Invention + Paper + (Education OR Poetry)): Remove Literature (Lit – Philosophy – Education OR Lit – Drama – Poetry)
• Realism (Liberalism + Music + Photography + Romanticism): Remove Music (Music – Humanism – Free Artistry – Romanticism)
• Scientific Method (Astronomy + Chemistry + Printing Press + (Economics OR Physics)): Remove Astronomy (Astro – Astrolabe – Navigation – Mercantilism – Economics OR Astro – Physics)

Industrial Era:

Spoiler :

• Antibiotics (Chemistry + Medicine + Steam Power): Remove Chemistry (Chem – Scientific Method – Steam Power)
• Artillery (Explosives + Semi-Automatic Weapons + Steel): Remove Steel (Steel – Semi-Automatic Weapons)
• Automatic Weapons (Combustion + Industrialism + Semi-Automatic Weapons + Trench Warfare): Remove Combustion (Com – Industrialism) AND remove Semi-Automatic Weapons (SAW – Artillery – Trench Warfare)
• Flight (Balloon Warfare + Combustion + Screw Propeller): Remove Screw Propeller (SP – Combustion)
• Machine Tools (Advanced Metallurgy + Motorized Transportation): Remove Advanced Metallurgy (AM – Motorized Transportation)
• Mass Transit (Civil Engineering + Communism + Motorized Transportation): Remove Civil Engineering (CE – Industrialism – Advanced Metallurgy – Motorized Transportation)
• Motorized Transportation (Advanced Metallurgy + Assembly Line + Bicycles + Combustion + Electricity): Remove Assembly Line (AL – Combustion – Industrialism – Advanced Metallurgy) AND Combustion (Com – Industrialism – Advanced Metallurgy) AND Electricity (Elect – Industrialism – Advanced Metallurgy)
• Radio Astronomy (Optics + Radio): Remove Optics (Optics – Whaling – Gas Lighting – Electricity – Telegraph – Radio)
• Steam Power (Chemistry + Physics + Replaceable Parts + Scientific Method): Remove Chemistry (Chem – Scientific Method)
• Submarine Warfare (Advanced Metallurgy + Automatic Weapons + Military Science + Mine Warfare): Remove Military Science (MS – Semi-Automatic Weapons – Artillery – Trench Warfare – Automatic Weapons) AND remove Mine Warfare (MW – Trench Warfare – Automatic Weapons)
• Thermodynamics (Algebra + Physics + (Scientific Method OR Steam Power)): Remove Algebra (Algebra – Physics)
• Water Sports (Combustion + Screw Propeller): Remove Screw Propeller (SP – Combustion)
• Zeppelins (Balloon Warfare + Flight): Remove Balloon Warfare (Balloon Warfare – Flight)

Advanced Metallurgy is in a lot of places on the Industrial tech tree. I was surprised that it effectively reduced Motorized Transportation to just Advanced Metallurgy + Bicycles.

 

[Vokarya]

And the last three eras.

Modern Era:

Spoiler :

• Climate Models (3D Modeling + Computer Networks + Ecology + Long-Range Forecasting): Remove Computer Networks (CN – 3D Modeling)
• Computer Networks (Computers + Semiconductors): Remove Computers (Comp – Semiconductors)
• Ecology (Agricultural Engineering + Paleontology + (Nuclear Power OR Solar Power)): Remove Paleontology (Pal - Psychology – Compulsory Education – Modern Physics – Solar Power OR Pal – Psychology – Compulsory Education – Modern Physics – Computers – Nuclear Power)
• Gene Manipulation (Genetics + Globalization + Semiconductors): Remove Semiconductors (Semi – Computer Networks – Gllobalization)
• Genetics (Medicine + Superconductors + (Modern Health Care OR Paleontology)): Remove Medicine (Med – Psychology – Compulsory Education – Modern Physics – Computers – Superconductors)
• Microprocessor (Computers + Semiconductors): Remove Computers (Comp – Semiconductors)
• Naval Aviation (Amphibious Warfare + Aviation + Military Science + Radar): Remove Military Science (Mil Sci – Trench Warfare – Automatic Weapons – Amphibious Warfare)
• Recycling (Ecology + Globalization + Mass Transit): Remove Mass Transit (MT – Logistics – Manufacturing – Semiconductors – Computer Networks – Globalization)
• Unmanned Air Vehicles (Communication Networks + Modern Warfare + Vertical Flight): Remove Vertical Flight (VF – Astronatutics – Communication Networks)
• Virtual Reality (3D Modeling + Extreme Sports + Globalization): Remove Globalization (Global – Extreme Sports)
• Volcanology (Geology + Modern Seismology): Remove Geology (Geo – Advanced Metallurgy – Submarine Warfare – Sonar – Modern Seismology)

Transhuman Era:

Spoiler :

• Automated Traffic (Communication Networks + Fiber Optics + Knowledge Management + Mass Transit + Neural Networks): Remove Communication Networks (CN – Knowledge Management) and remove Fiber Optics (FO – Knowledge Management) and remove Mass Transit (MT – Logistics – Manufacturing – Semiconductors – Computer Networks – Neural Networks)
• Metamaterials (Communication Networks + Nanotechnology + Stealth): Remove Communication Networks (CN – Nanotechnology)
• Quantum Teleportation (Computer Networks + Fiber Optics + Magnetic Levitation + Superstring Theory): Remove Computer Networks (CN – Fiber Optics) and remove Magnetic Levitation (ML – Superstring Theory)
• Skyroads (Artificial Intelligence + Automated Traffic + Unmanned Air Vehicles + Vertical Flight): Remove Vertical Flight (VF – Astronatutics – Communication Networks – Unmanned Air Vehicles)

Galactic Era:

Spoiler :

• ACNP Propulsion (Fusion + Interstellar Trade + Quantum Computing): Remove Fusion (Fusion – Shielding – Colony Arcology – Launch Arcology - VASIMR Propulsion – Interstellar Trade)
• Artificial Stars (Artificial Planets + Fusion): Remove Fusion (Fusion – Shielding -Colony Arcology – Launch Arcology – Attometer Engineering – Planet Engineering – Artificial Planets)
• Atomization Field (Attometer Engineering + Controlled Plasma): Remove Controlled Plasma (Con P – Fusion – Shielding – Colony Arcology – Launch Arcology – Attometer Engineering)
• Cryogenics (Advanced Computers + Homo Superior + Smart Drugs): Remove Advanced Computers (AC – Universal Translator – Homo Superior)
• Lunar Trade (Lunar Tourism + Mass Driver + Planetary Economics + Solar Propulsion): Remove Lunar Tourism (LT – Solar Propulsion)
• Megastrong Alloys (Atomization Field + Singularity Stabilization + Weaponized Antimatter): Remove Atomization Field (AF – Weaponized Disintegration – Weaponized Antimatter)
• Mind Uploading (Thought Scanning + (Artificial Evolution OR Personal Robots)): Remove Thought Scanning (TS – Bionics – Cybenetics – Artificial Evolution OR TS – Universal Translator – Personal Robots)
• Planetary Extraction (Asteroid Extraction + Planetary Colonization): Remove Asteroid Extraction (Aex – Solar Propulsion – Planetary Colonization)
• Sentient Earth (Artificial Life + Quantum Computing + Regenerative Medicine + Terra Computer): Remove Quantum Computing (QC – Optronics – Terra Computer) and remove Regenerative Medicine (RM – DNA Computing – Artificial Life)
• Smart Dust (Communication Networks + Nanoelectronics + Wireless Electricity): Remove Communication Networks (CN – Wearable Computers – Plastic Electronics – Nanoelectronics) and remove Wireless Electricity (WE – Nanoelectronics)
• Teleportation (Atomization Field + Mind Uploading + Quantum Computing): Remove Mind Uploading (MU – Terra Computer – Weather Control – Planetary Terraforming – Attometer Engineering – Atomization Field) and remove Quantum Computing (QC – Optronics – Terra Computer – Weather Control – Planetary Terraforming – Attometer Engineering – Atomization Field)
• Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators (Antimatter Rocket + Singularity Stabilization): Remove Antimatter Rocket (AR – Singularity Stabilization)
• VASIMR Propulsion (Controlled Plasma + Launch Arcology + Nuclear Pulse Propulsion): Remove Controlled Plasma (Con P – Fusion – Shielding – Colony Arcology – Launch Arcology) and remove Nuclear Pulse Propulsion (NPP - Launch Arcology)
• Weather Control (Climate Models + Quantum Computing + Terra Computer): Remove Quantum Computing (QC – Optronics – Terra Computer)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Just so you know I have been slowly going through your lists. Thank you for doing them. Note that most of the time if a tech has only 1 requirement I leave it as it is since a tech with only 1 requirement can appear all messed up on the tech tree. Thus they are redundant.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Just so you know I have been slowly going through your lists. Thank you for doing them. Note that most of the time if a tech has only 1 requirement I leave it as it is since a tech with only 1 requirement can appear all messed up on the tech tree. Thus they are redundant.

I didn't touch technologies with only one prerequisite. I understand those ones -- I was specifically looking for one prerequisite making another prerequisite redundant. I also forgot to include the six Galactic-Era techs with one prerequisite, but it's listed as both an AND tech and an OR tech, so you get something like requiring "Time Travel + Time Travel". Those are:

• Artificial Planets
• Dualflux Quantum Temporal Rift
• Folding Space
• Planet Manufacturing
• Space Creasing
• Wormhole Communications

 

[Hydromancerx]

I didn't touch technologies with only one prerequisite. I understand those ones

An example of what I mean ...

Ancestor Worship (Ceremonial Burial + Pottery): Remove Ceremonial Burial (CB – Mysticism – Megalith Construction – Sedentary Lifestyle – Agriculture – Pottery)

This leaves Ancestor Worship (Req Pottery) which means it only has 1 requirement. The tree goes wonky if you do this (Or so SO tells me).

 

[strategyonly]

An example of what I mean ...



This leaves Ancestor Worship (Req Pottery) which means it only has 1 requirement. The tree goes wonky if you do this (Or so SO tells me).

I'll re-check into this again, give me 1 day to check things out ok.

 

[Vokarya]

An example of what I mean ...



This leaves Ancestor Worship (Req Pottery) which means it only has 1 requirement. The tree goes wonky if you do this (Or so SO tells me).

OK, but as I said in the SVN thread, I've seen several other techs that only have one requirement. If you want, I could suggest a second prerequisite.

 

[strategyonly]

OK, but as I said in the SVN thread, I've seen several other techs that only have one requirement. If you want, I could suggest a second prerequisite.

OK, i just re-tested them, and before if i remember correctly, we were having problems with the ANDPreq, and not have a beginning Preq, thats where the 2 Preq came in, now, i believe, WE only need just 1 BUT it has to be a Preq and not an ANDPreq only. thats where "we" were messing up before. Its been a year since i messed with them, just trying to remember everything is all.

 

[ls612]

What would everyone think of removing the Blitz, Quick, and Standard gamespeeds?

Currently, the fastest gamespeed that I feel is 'supported' is Epic, which clocks in at ~3000 turns, which I think is the minimum needed to properly play C2C.

A look at the GameSpeedInfos says that to remove gamespeeds references need to be cleaned up in the CultureInfos.xml. Are there any other files in C2C that would need cleanup for this to work? Does this even sound like a good idea?

 

[strategyonly]

Why you'll changed to the new timelines stuff, did you really want it to take this long on Snail for ONE (1) tech

 

[ls612]

Why you'll changed to the new timelines stuff, did you really want it to take this long on Snail for ONE (1) tech

Well, that's not too far off from what I want. The major problem your game seems to have is that you only have about 7 or 8 cities. You are also a bit ahead of things in the tech progression so far, so a slowdown in Classical may be good for your game. I assume you still have stuff to build at this point.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That'd certainly put Snail back into its place as a 'Snail' game and allow for Normal to become Normal again. But I noted that some of his other features were not quite as held to ratio, such as the time to birth a GP. Otherwise, I've been thinking Snail needs to slow WAY down on tech rates. We'll have to playtest considerably to see how things like build rates compare now.

I'm presuming you're adjusting all the other gamespeeds to balance against the new Snail ratios? Without it, we're going to have screams of protest from players who feel the Snail speed is suddenly so much slower, perhaps even monotonous, and now they want to play on quicker speeds but can't because those ones aren't 'ready' yet.

 

[ls612]

That'd certainly put Snail back into its place as a 'Snail' game and allow for Normal to become Normal again. But I noted that some of his other features were not quite as held to ratio, such as the time to birth a GP. Otherwise, I've been thinking Snail needs to slow WAY down on tech rates. We'll have to playtest considerably to see how things like build rates compare now.

I'm presuming you're adjusting all the other gamespeeds to balance against the new Snail ratios? Without it, we're going to have screams of protest from players who feel the Snail speed is suddenly so much slower, perhaps even monotonous, and now they want to play on quicker speeds but can't because those ones aren't 'ready' yet.

Yes, I am currently supporting Epic, Snail, and Eternity gamespeeds for balancing.

 

[strategyonly]

But I noted that some of his other features were not quite as held to ratio, such as the time to birth a GP.

Yeah the average time for any GP is around 450 turns each.

 

[Thunderbrd]

wow... Snail has become WAAAY slower now... we're definitely going to need updates for Marathons and Normal as well then I think.