Keep the Norse Empire warm for me Thy, I have a feeling I might be needing it
*has angry peasants, entered another war, and is already small and crumbling*
TNESI: The Glorious Mysteries
- Thread starter Thlayli
- Start date
Keep the Norse Empire warm for me Thy, I have a feeling I might be needing it
*has angry peasants, entered another war, and is already small and crumbling*
silver 2039
Deity
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Did you try Din-I-Ilhai by any chance?
Insane_Panda
Deity
No, das is realistic about that. For example - Silver's mughals in NES2 VI imploded due to the fact that all those disparate groups would never hold together, and due to the fact that it really was just founded upon a bayonet, with nothing else holding it up. HRE was founded on the bayonet, yes, but our engineers quickly came in and replaced it with nice Corinthian columns and grandoise architecture.
Are my peasents angry, Thy? IIRC, the Roman Empire has a relatively lax policy concerning peasents, and our land estates are not so much fuedalistic. I hope I am one of those Empire's who are massively bigger than they expected
(Considering I did not expect much at all, save for holding all of my current gains ).
das
Regeneration In Process
CURSE YOU!
No, I didn't. But what I did try was similar in many regards, although some of the fundamental flaws have been avoided (I hope).silver 2039
Deity
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the HRE and the GEAR and EUA were ridiculous nations that would never have survived. The same problem exists for them that existed for my Mughals disprtate groups that could never hold together. the HRE had Spanish, Portoguese, Germans, Ducth, and Italians in it to name a few, GEAR had more Chinese than Japanese and the EUA owned the entire bloody Americas. That was just stupid that none of those Empire's imploded.
Insane_Panda
Deity
The HRE is quite feasible, atleast for the duration of the NES. It may have not lasted throughout the centuries, but it certaintly was capable of lasting a few decades. You will remember, Silver, that nationalism, as a concept, had not yet gained significance throughout the world. Particularism, the favor of ones particular region over the rest, was still prevalent, and what is easier to manipulate than a groups hatred over their neighbors?
Case in point: The Catalans and the Germans. The Catalans, though part of Spain, hated the Spanish, and eagerly rushed to France as their savoir. Indeed, it could be said that in NES2 VI, the Catalans were more loyal than some Frenchmen. They were not swayed by Spanish revolts, for they hated the Spaniards, and France provided them all they needed. And the Catalans didn't have that nasty side of radicalism that had to be shot out of some Frenchmen
The Germans, meanwhile, were never unified except under two states, and the popularity of these two states were hardly significant. Under French rule, Germans were provided with excellent healthcare, infrastructure, and services, whilst during their few year tenure as part of the GGR, they were subject to mass conscription to fight a war which they did not really believe in. (Note the only reason the GGR came into existence was due to my essentially giving up of the German provinces I owned after the conquest of Brunswick and Augsburg so that I could focus on Spain. Stalin, however, stupidly betrayed me, allowing me to annex Germany once and for all.) The Germans, for the most part, were indifferent. This was due to the fact that France provided such services for them, and that nationalism, as a force, did not exist. The Dutch had been under French rule since before the NES began, and were profiting heavily from it. There was no reason for their resistance towards French authority. The single thing that most NESers refuse to understand is that people will not revolt without a reason. You can not base resistance upon such ideals as national identity or social struggle if there are not realistic concerns to which you can apply your ideals. Calling for nationalistic revolts in an age without nationalism is tanamount to calling for the abolition of the free-market on the floors of the New York Stock Exchange.
The largest threat to the HRE were radical insurgents, yet without a thread of commonality, they in the end failed. They were not backed by nationalists, nor were they backed with any real cause. In the end, the Empire provided what they screamed for, and they were merely turned into a bunch of raving idealogues. The only real nationalists were the Spanish elite, yet without real planning on their part, and without the completely enthusiastic support of the people, it was only a matter of time before they were crushed.
Dar-al-Islam, in contrast, had deep rooted tensions going back hundreds of years. Europe had those too, but Europeans on the whole are generally much more flexible concerning their allegiances. Muslims and Hindus, on the other hand, are violently sectarian, as can be noted by the Sunni-Shi'ite conflict, the Kurdish-Turkic conflicts, and the Muslim-Hindu conflicts. And this has nothing to do with nationalism at all. Furthermore, you cannot found an Empire simply on conquest - after such conquest, there must be a deep rooted, and thorough attempt to establish your control over these conquered regions, and it cannot be done simply through repression. GEAR, EUA, and HRE all succeeded in part due to the massive efforts made towards consolidating their gains. Dar-al-Islam never made as strong an effort, and when it did, it simply murdered people and centralized power, furthering resentment and in the end only catalyzing the inevitable collapse.
Case in point: The Catalans and the Germans. The Catalans, though part of Spain, hated the Spanish, and eagerly rushed to France as their savoir. Indeed, it could be said that in NES2 VI, the Catalans were more loyal than some Frenchmen. They were not swayed by Spanish revolts, for they hated the Spaniards, and France provided them all they needed. And the Catalans didn't have that nasty side of radicalism that had to be shot out of some Frenchmen
The Germans, meanwhile, were never unified except under two states, and the popularity of these two states were hardly significant. Under French rule, Germans were provided with excellent healthcare, infrastructure, and services, whilst during their few year tenure as part of the GGR, they were subject to mass conscription to fight a war which they did not really believe in. (Note the only reason the GGR came into existence was due to my essentially giving up of the German provinces I owned after the conquest of Brunswick and Augsburg so that I could focus on Spain. Stalin, however, stupidly betrayed me, allowing me to annex Germany once and for all.) The Germans, for the most part, were indifferent. This was due to the fact that France provided such services for them, and that nationalism, as a force, did not exist. The Dutch had been under French rule since before the NES began, and were profiting heavily from it. There was no reason for their resistance towards French authority. The single thing that most NESers refuse to understand is that people will not revolt without a reason. You can not base resistance upon such ideals as national identity or social struggle if there are not realistic concerns to which you can apply your ideals. Calling for nationalistic revolts in an age without nationalism is tanamount to calling for the abolition of the free-market on the floors of the New York Stock Exchange.
The largest threat to the HRE were radical insurgents, yet without a thread of commonality, they in the end failed. They were not backed by nationalists, nor were they backed with any real cause. In the end, the Empire provided what they screamed for, and they were merely turned into a bunch of raving idealogues. The only real nationalists were the Spanish elite, yet without real planning on their part, and without the completely enthusiastic support of the people, it was only a matter of time before they were crushed.
Dar-al-Islam, in contrast, had deep rooted tensions going back hundreds of years. Europe had those too, but Europeans on the whole are generally much more flexible concerning their allegiances. Muslims and Hindus, on the other hand, are violently sectarian, as can be noted by the Sunni-Shi'ite conflict, the Kurdish-Turkic conflicts, and the Muslim-Hindu conflicts. And this has nothing to do with nationalism at all. Furthermore, you cannot found an Empire simply on conquest - after such conquest, there must be a deep rooted, and thorough attempt to establish your control over these conquered regions, and it cannot be done simply through repression. GEAR, EUA, and HRE all succeeded in part due to the massive efforts made towards consolidating their gains. Dar-al-Islam never made as strong an effort, and when it did, it simply murdered people and centralized power, furthering resentment and in the end only catalyzing the inevitable collapse.
das
Regeneration In Process
You see, it wasn't nearly as much a matter of disparate groups (although it was in part a one of disparate interests of your largely autonomous and self-sufficient imperial regions) as that of a lack of any real ties other than political, and even those comparatively recent; your empire was simply way too spontaneous to hold together. Whereas the HRE, EUA and GEAR all had grown gradually, taking care to integrate the different newly-conquered areas administratively, economically, culturally and so forth. You just went and conquered a lot of regions and didn't even really try holding them together, instead going for the Mongol solution of the same problem - with exactly the same outcome, only faster because it was a faster time period.
Keep the Norse Empire warm for me Thy, I have a feeling I might be needing it
*has angry peasants, entered another war, and is already small and crumbling*
Join the club!
LittleBoots
The Bloody Banner
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,979
Hmm, Thy, I haven't sent BT orders, have I? How late will you be accepting those?
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
He better be accepting late orders
You've had more time to update than me.Not really, but let's just say I'll keep to the time-honored tradition of updating before Iggy.
Poor Ottomans.The HRE is quite feasible, atleast for the duration of the NES. It may have not lasted throughout the centuries, but it certaintly was capable of lasting a few decades. You will remember, Silver, that nationalism, as a concept, had not yet gained significance throughout the world. Particularism, the favor of ones particular region over the rest, was still prevalent, and what is easier to manipulate than a groups hatred over their neighbors?
Case in point: The Catalans and the Germans. The Catalans, though part of Spain, hated the Spanish, and eagerly rushed to France as their savoir. Indeed, it could be said that in NES2 VI, the Catalans were more loyal than some Frenchmen. They were not swayed by Spanish revolts, for they hated the Spaniards, and France provided them all they needed. And the Catalans didn't have that nasty side of radicalism that had to be shot out of some Frenchmen
The Germans, meanwhile, were never unified except under two states, and the popularity of these two states were hardly significant. Under French rule, Germans were provided with excellent healthcare, infrastructure, and services, whilst during their few year tenure as part of the GGR, they were subject to mass conscription to fight a war which they did not really believe in. (Note the only reason the GGR came into existence was due to my essentially giving up of the German provinces I owned after the conquest of Brunswick and Augsburg so that I could focus on Spain. Stalin, however, stupidly betrayed me, allowing me to annex Germany once and for all.) The Germans, for the most part, were indifferent. This was due to the fact that France provided such services for them, and that nationalism, as a force, did not exist. The Dutch had been under French rule since before the NES began, and were profiting heavily from it. There was no reason for their resistance towards French authority. The single thing that most NESers refuse to understand is that people will not revolt without a reason. You can not base resistance upon such ideals as national identity or social struggle if there are not realistic concerns to which you can apply your ideals. Calling for nationalistic revolts in an age without nationalism is tanamount to calling for the abolition of the free-market on the floors of the New York Stock Exchange.
The largest threat to the HRE were radical insurgents, yet without a thread of commonality, they in the end failed. They were not backed by nationalists, nor were they backed with any real cause. In the end, the Empire provided what they screamed for, and they were merely turned into a bunch of raving idealogues. The only real nationalists were the Spanish elite, yet without real planning on their part, and without the completely enthusiastic support of the people, it was only a matter of time before they were crushed.
Dar-al-Islam, in contrast, had deep rooted tensions going back hundreds of years. Europe had those too, but Europeans on the whole are generally much more flexible concerning their allegiances. Muslims and Hindus, on the other hand, are violently sectarian, as can be noted by the Sunni-Shi'ite conflict, the Kurdish-Turkic conflicts, and the Muslim-Hindu conflicts. And this has nothing to do with nationalism at all. Furthermore, you cannot found an Empire simply on conquest - after such conquest, there must be a deep rooted, and thorough attempt to establish your control over these conquered regions, and it cannot be done simply through repression. GEAR, EUA, and HRE all succeeded in part due to the massive efforts made towards consolidating their gains. Dar-al-Islam never made as strong an effort, and when it did, it simply murdered people and centralized power, furthering resentment and in the end only catalyzing the inevitable collapse.
If only I hadn't had to leave my computer for a month...
Symphony D.
Deity
Decloak: Irrelevent. China wasn't going to be officially integrated into the government until it settled down. In the meantime, their country's government, despite being the strongest it had been in years, was utterly and totally smashed in under two years--a failing essentially unparalleled in Chinese history for that timeline. China had no remaining military resistance (it was all obliterated), no reason for resisting (they enjoyed previously unheard of prosperity and were well treated), no method of resisting (my methods were very, very carrot and stick), and quite honestly its system of government had been disgraced and discredited rather totally (in all its various guises) over the past half-century.
All I had to do (and was doing) was just declaring its zones territories until such time as my rather insidious gradual assimilation programs began to take hold. In the meantime they made lots of money, and, just by looking at the PRC, it's rather obvious that that's enough to placate your average person even if they don't have political freedom at the moment.
Didn't matter how many of them there were; by the time it became important, it'd be too late--all their children would think the same way any good GEAR citizen should, and that's all that matters, not whether they're Japanese, or Chinese, or Filipino, or Vietnamese, or Thai, or Hawaiian, or Maori, or British, or French, or Aboriginie, or any of the hundreds of other little nationalities I ruled. Race means nothing at all when the mentality is the same and it's treated as a non-issue--see the United States. All that requires is a little bit of PR and being sneaky instead of publicly killing off everyone opposed to you.
And in the case of China, all that requires is getting rid of the Civil Service system and surplanting it with your own, since that singular institution, more than anything else, is the cement that held China together for centuries and centuries and kept its national identity around. Remove it, and restructuring the bricks as you will becomes much simpler (evidence enough can be seen with Mao, however disasterous his policies). Having over two million of the best soldiers in the world and an apparently invincible army doesn't hurt in terms of dissuading people from pressing their luck either.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
You know what the HI-larious thing about this discussion is?
There's a thread for it now. And it's not mine. So go there.
There's a thread for it now. And it's not mine. So go there.
Insane_Panda
Deity
Are my peasants discontented?!
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Insane_Panda
Deity
Well, I guess that means a lot of Catholics are going to die.
JosefStalinator
Я буду снова здесь
Come on Thlayli! Beat Iggy!
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
*Twitch*
You're kidding me, right Thy? A flismy sentance in the domestic section and nothing on the war? How do you expect bloody orders?
You're kidding me, right Thy? A flismy sentance in the domestic section and nothing on the war? How do you expect bloody orders?
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
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If anyone tried to rebel against me, I'll rape them anally with a large wooden staken.
JosefStalinator
Я буду снова здесь
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