Tolerance of different religions vs. equal treatment

I think it would be more than just a little and again, allowing certain legitimate exemptions isnt a double standard....its simply how things work in order to account for the myriad of situations that can come up in these situations.

Exemptions should not be based on religious beliefs (or lack of). If a law that prohibits dogs in public parks has an exemption that allows service dogs, that would make sense. But no one should receive an exemption because of what they choose or claim to believe.

Actually, it covers members of all relgions as well since the Jewish guy in question could wear his little religious beanie, but not a ballcap or cowboy hat or whatever.

How about we standardize it to where everyone can wear a jewish beanie if they want and thats it? Satisfied? I mean that makes about as much sense as your own recommendation since religious types can only wear a very limited number of caps. So why not have the single standard to say that if you want to wear a hat, you have to limit it to this kind of hat? Thats fair to all and indeed a single standard isnt it?

I was referring to members of any religion, not any one religion specifically.

That seems overly restrictive to me.
 
I'll just say that I think faith, political ideology, moral views, and sexual orientation(considered a choice by some) all deserve the same protection as sex, race, color, etc. because they are key parts of a person's identity and being.

The only exception is if they directly, physically harm someone.

Belief in God and the FSM alike don't hurt non-believers so long as they are kept out of the walls of gov't. Gay marriage does not devalue current marriages unless you actually think it to. Political ideology is iffy because it inherently involves imposing your values on others, but on an individual basis even radical ideas deserve protection; as for making them law, that is why we have fundamental, inalienable freedoms and protections that nobody, not even everyone but a single person, can take away.

As for special treatment, there should be none at all. Dividing citizens into social classes is horrid, no matter how small or grand the scale of it is.
 
Your gender and ethnicity are not matters of choice. Your beliefs are.
Incidentally, ethnicity is absolutely a matter of choice.
 
How does someone choose what ethnicity they are?
Since ethnicity is chiefly a method of self-identification, it is by definition a matter of personal choice. :confused:
 
Since ethnicity is chiefly a method of self-identification, it is by definition a matter of personal choice. :confused:

I'm not using in the sense of what culture you choose to identify with, but in the sense of ethnic background/race
 
I'm not using in the sense of what culture you choose to identify with, but in the sense of ethnic background/race
Race - I assume here you mean "skin color" - is not an integral or even necessary element in ethnicity. (Since Fredrik Barth might be a bit too highbrow for this crowd, let's bring in a more modern and colloquial example. Remember Dave Chappelle's story about his grandfather, who had pretty light skin, getting on a bus in Southeast DC after MLK was assassinated? How his grandfather, who was blind, took forever to realize that the passenger that all of the black bus riders were abusing was, in fact, him?) Neither is genetics, which is in fact completely divorced from the concept of ethnicity.

I have little idea as to what you mean by "ethnic background", since it seems tautological that "ethnicity" and "ethnic background" would be related, but it seems to me that if you're talking about culture, one's adherence to given cultural practices and mores is obviously a matter of personal choice, let alone the language one speaks. Any cursory understanding of immigrants ought to make that perfectly clear. One's religion is to all intents and purposes a matter of personal choice - although that choice may be limited based on personal experience/critical thinking and so on, it is not inherently limited.
 
Race - I assume here you mean "skin color" - is not an integral or even necessary element in ethnicity. (Since Fredrik Barth might be a bit too highbrow for this crowd, let's bring in a more modern and colloquial example. Remember Dave Chappelle's story about his grandfather, who had pretty light skin, getting on a bus in Southeast DC after MLK was assassinated? How his grandfather, who was blind, took forever to realize that the passenger that all of the black bus riders were abusing was, in fact, him?) Neither is genetics, which is in fact completely divorced from the concept of ethnicity.

I have little idea as to what you mean by "ethnic background", since it seems tautological that "ethnicity" and "ethnic background" would be related, but it seems to me that if you're talking about culture, one's adherence to given cultural practices and mores is obviously a matter of personal choice, let alone the language one speaks. Any cursory understanding of immigrants ought to make that perfectly clear. One's religion is to all intents and purposes a matter of personal choice - although that choice may be limited based on personal experience/critical thinking and so on, it is not inherently limited.

I use ethnicity in it's HR meaning (also listed as ethnic origin). ie my ethnic origin is 'white' or Caucasian, and it is not something I have control over.

I can choose what cultural traditions I adhere to, but that does not change my ethnic origin.
 
I use ethnicity in it's HR meaning (also listed as ethnic origin). ie my ethnic origin is 'white' or Caucasian, and it is not something I have control over.

I can choose what cultural traditions I adhere to, but that does not change my ethnic origin.
So, in other words, you're misusing a phrase. All right then! I'm glad we got that sorted out.
 
So, in other words, you're misusing a phrase. All right then! I'm glad we got that sorted out.

Considering the fact that the entire human resources sector uses ethnicity in that meaning, I don't see how it's misusing it. The problem is race doesn't mean race, really, and yes ethnicity doesn't mean ethnicity, and Od is and odd name (bonus points for anyone who gets that reference :))
 
How should it be phrased then?
If he wants to talk about the difference between white people and everything else, he's referring to skin color, which is obviously not something you can choose unless you live in New Jersey. That's what it seems like he's talking about, although he's very unclear. The alternative is to assume he's referring to the categories his employer's human-resources department uses to classify people, which is unrelated to any meaningful definition of "ethnicity". Such primordialist confusions of sociological concepts (like ethnicity) and biological concepts (like "race") are better fit for Himmler and Mengele.

Simply put, "ethnicity" means "membership of a people". What a "people" is is, of course, up for debate, but the element of membership necessarily involves choice. And, as it turns out, the cumulative result of studies on the nature of ethnicity since the 1960s (see, for instance, the useful overview by Eriksen) has given us the conclusion that the only commonality between all "ethnicities" is, in fact, the element of choice in membership. These people self-identify as Pathans, so they are Pathans. These other people self-identify as Kohistanis, so they are Kohistanis. The fact that making the choice to identify as a given ethnicity might involve other choices as well (acquiring Romanitas would have involved, for instance, learning Latin) does not make it any less an artifact of choice.

This does not mean that ethnicity encompasses all modes of social identification; age is not an ethnic identifier, for instance, and while gender and class have at times made up elements of some ethnic identifiers, they do not constitute ethnic identifiers on their own. And, of course, ethnicity is layered: Thiudahad, king of the Italian Goths, saw himself as a Goth, a Roman noble, and a Tuscan landowner all at the same time in a noncontradictory fashion. A more simplistic version would be noting that a Chinese-American immigrant in Brooklyn might think of herself as being Chinese, American, a New Yorker, and a Brooklynite, all at the same time and with varying levels of importance.

EDIT: Apparently galdre does think that human-resources departments have a better definition and understanding of the concept of ethnicity than do sociologists and anthropologists. That's rather cute.
 
Considering the fact that the entire human resources sector uses ethnicity in that meaning, I don't see how it's misusing it. The problem is race doesn't mean race, really, and yes ethnicity doesn't mean ethnicity, and Od is and odd name (bonus points for anyone who gets that reference :))

Human Resources should be primarily concerned with what the Federal Government considers the ethnicity of the applicant or employee to be. The US Census uses self identification to determine ethnicity, as do sound employment forms. Nobody other than the person his or herself gets to legally classify his or her ethnicity.

I'll have to agree with the notion that genetic scrutiny or visual check to determine ethnicity is a crude and out of date method.
 
HR people are servants of Satan.
 
HR people are servants of Satan.

One of the reasons I got the heck out of it. Well, maybe not the primary reason, but the workplace improved significantly and immediately upon exodus from that bondage.

I remember having to tell an employee who was successfully using an electronic cigarette to help kick a 30 year addiction to sneak a quick usage in the john after she was ordered to not use it on company property.
 
EDIT: Apparently galdre does think that human-resources departments have a better definition and understanding of the concept of ethnicity than do sociologists and anthropologists. That's rather cute.

I didn't say anything about the definition of the concept, only was explaining my use of the term. And since it is a common use of the term, the best you can say about it is that it's inexact, which I freely admitted.

Now, to get back on topic, race/skin color/ethnic origin (whatever term you feel like using) can not be chosen like religion can.

HR people are servants of Satan.

I completely agree - it's the reason I don't work in HR any more
 
Religions should not receive any special rights or protections at all. Unlike gender or 'color', religion can, does, and has caused harm to humanity and society as a whole.
 
Are all people equal? If so, should they not be treated equally in every respect under the law?

Equality is a funny thing. I think human beings are prima facie equal, but it remains to be determined where this equality extends to. Propertarianism, for example, doesn't hold that equality extends to the ownership of property.

When it comes to deciding on this question, I don't think you can reason based only on a priori propositions, nor from strictly deontological rights-based premises. You need to look at what works and what doesn't, and experience tells you that sometimes taut ropes don't hold up that well because they break.
 
Equality is a funny thing. I think human beings are prima facie equal, but it remains to be determined where this equality extends to. Propertarianism, for example, doesn't hold that equality extends to the ownership of property.

When it comes to deciding on this question, I don't think you can reason based only on a priori propositions, nor from strictly deontological rights-based premises. You need to look at what works and what doesn't, and experience tells you that sometimes taut ropes don't hold up that well because they break.

I seem to remember this whole debate here about whether people were equal. But setting that question aside, should all people be equal under the law, regardless of beliefs?
 
Back
Top Bottom