Tonks: Tigers, Armatas, T-72 Alphabets

[r16]

this thread exists as a consent creation device or whatever the hell . One side in the truly good and righteous war had wrong priorities with too complex weapon systems . That's why they lost , beaten by one half of allies , super smart geniuses and not beaten by the other half of the allies because the latter were , are and will be fools . Until the rapidly deployable mine fields through katyusha .


so , doubly insulting your future masters with referencing the TK-3 or whatever . It all depends on the opposition . Cool on parade ground in pre-Anchluss Austria

but -ette already identifies it too small . Say , to carry a proper gun



and only development of technology can give the lightweight a fighting chance

which then is still studied and improved upon

and even the have-nots can play that game , like this Irish tank that lost its turret in a fire

and you can always trust the Germans who are like masters of panzery stuff ... to be fielding some light tank deployable with helicopters ...



do not insult your Polish lords or whatever .

 

[r16]

silly me , how did ı forget this Fiat from Croatia of 1991 ?

or this Japanese thing from 60s ?

 

[Broken_Erika]

The Tank hunting TKS used a 20mm AT gun, very effective against early german panzers

 

[Kyriakos]

WW2 Venezuelan tank:

Quick, to the batmobile

 

[Broken_Erika]

Skoda PA-I

 

[r16]

is no Venezuelan WW II tank . Is Venezuela 1934 gun truck . Is turtle as well .


and them Skodas clearly lack the coolness of another turtle



but ugliness has a beauty of its own , as in these Skoda Fiat trucks



but to win the day , you need more odd . Hence the awesome Vespa Caproni . Of 1942 vintage of all years and still has 4 wheels . But one up front , two at the sides and one rear . Apparently it turned around real fast ...

and also , we are like behaving so , like do not bring this thread forward so often !

 

[Kyriakos]

What's the point of building that armored hood around a stupid truck?
Makes it be even less cool than before.

 

[r16]

because that's the way armoured trucks are made . Can not go through 5000 or double pictures in the folders , but it started in the Great War , fashionably by the Royal Navy , in Belgium , by a unit commanded by some guy named Samson and stuff . In the case of Tortuga , it seems Colombia of 1930s was some bored country . After having some spats with Peru the Colombian attitude made Venezuelans think they might be next , so they added armour , to look impressive . And it supposedly helped . By the way , have you met Nancy ? She is a model , protecting the supply convoys and has a wikipedia article , too , named Vietnam guntrucks .

 

[r16]

and of course the main issue with armoured trucks is that at the end of the day they are not tanks ...

Spoiler :

armour is heavy , the wheels will sink into the ground eventually and of the stuff of tanks involving firepower , protection and mobility you will eventually hit a wall of making hard choices . The same exists in tanks , it is true , but they tend to be better off ...


samson and his motorbandits . A Royal Navy flier , he and his command he had after he couldn't fly for some reason knew about both armour plate and internal combustion engines and whatnot . They inflicted severe pain on German cavalry scouting forward . Then the war of movement ended , trenches were everywhere , the trucks heavy with armour could move only on the roads . And with trenches , every road tended to have artillery around . Hitting harder than cavalry carbines no doubt . That's how the British Navy , and mind you not the British Army , decided to develop the tanks .



time of experimentation and pressure from the industrialists to buy more . Hence , it was a quick discovery that air defence on trucks was cool . They could remain on the roads because all the nerve centers they had to protect from enemy aerial pin-pricks would quite conveniently have roads around them . And like they had history behind them as this BAK (anti balloon gun) , Krupp made 3.7cm from 1870 , trying to stop French balloon operations from Paris ...

even more it had already predated the Great War ... Because this could or should have been the very beginning of the entire armoured warfare ... The Kaiser inspecting the Panzerautomobil . Look for the white x after enlarging the picture , if you can't tell the guy from other Picklehaubes .



the same in more detail .



a truck with 3200 kilograms all up weight , 5 crew , 50mm gun . Follows naval practice in having a turret and whatnot . Its stated mission is to fire on enemy balloons spying on German Army doing its thing and mind you , it is still 1906 . And yet this is what it is meant to do:

the German Army rejects . In one of a typical r16 BS you will not hear elsewhere , using tanks is womanly business , not fit for men and kills the offensive spirit , the very essence of man . The Japanese have just shown the Offensive is still possible (despite the horrendous cost) . So , instead of getting some Holt agricultural tractor they stick to the faults . The armour is too thin at 3 mm (and ı somehow think 8 tends to be an universal standard for minimum against rifle caliber) . Can't go as fast as the claims . Can't see a damn thing when buttoned down ...

so , the company obliges .


there are you are , Ehrhardt halbgepanzerter wagen 5cm flugzeugabwehrkanone of 1908 or thereabouts . Still following naval stuff by only having the engine armoured as Americans of the time were busy inventing the all or nothing principle that would protect only the vital areas of a battleship with leaving no armour for other parts of the hull . Can not have proper armour and proper firepower and mobility at the same time , curse of the armoured truck ... But proudly brought to you by Rheinmetal with the standart upholstery and luxury . Come back 70 years later for Leopard II .

ending this here for ı don't know whether it will load slowly with the pictures having a lot of megabytes ...

 

[r16]

sure enough , outwardly it will be "Tell us, O Great r16!" while mumbling "Idiot!" at the same time "How is it that the most powerful AFV of 1940 is still a truck?"



8.8cm Flak18 (Sfl.) auf schwere Zugkraftwagen 12t (Sd.Kfz 8) . Copy pasted from the url of the wikipedia article ; writing on a tablet is tough


no , it is not because it is an "halftrack" and not a truck . Italians too had truck mounted 90mm AA guns . The engine and driver cab has armour up to 14,5mm . Basically the same standart as a PzKw I . And while KV-1 also saw combat in 1940 , the 88mm gun would kill it before it could get into range to shoot . As it would happen later on in '41 and beyond .



this one above is a WW I 88mm flak gun , captured by Americans . After earlier and weaker guns were not effective , the Germans took a naval calibre of theirs and developed it . Kept developing even when treaties banned them from doing so . It went to Spain where the confident Panzer troops were shaken by the Soviet superiority in armour , saved the day a few times ...

after engaging bunkers with great success , some heresy came to the ever inquisitive and destructive German minds . That they would soon invade Czechoslovakia and a modern fortress line had since been built when that country gained its independence . Based on Maginot designs and apparently superior in many areas . But their problem is they are meant for large scale infantry attacks . With some artillery blockhouses but most designed to have a machine gun ... A vehicle proofed against rifle caliber threats , approaching carefully and using great accuracy and penetration effect of a very large cannon ... Taking out the defences one by one , gradually destroying interlocking fields of fire .

some sort of a gentleman's agreement in play in those days ... 450 to 500 kilograms seem to be the heaviest weight a group of soldiers might be expected to push around in a battlefield . Which defined 37/40 (and perhaps up to maybe 57mm) the biggest anti-tank guns that could be fielded by infantry formations . And these guns played havoc with the thinly armoured tanks of the day . The pundits' view after the Spanish Civil War was that the era of the tank was now over , soundly defeated by the anti-tank gun ...

except the French had never intented to follow it with their to be famous Char1B . The British had paid a certain lip service but they had the excellent two pounder to kill the egg-thin Panzers while their dumb looking tankette thing Matilda I could not be destroyed by the German anti-tank guns ; because of its 60mm thick armour ...



even the Germans had cheated by doubling their standart 30mm armour by applique plates on a few PzKw IVs when the fight moved into Warsaw ... Any claims that the West was not ready for WW II is dubiously wrong , basically because of the odd assumption that the enemy should alone honour agreements so that he can be cheated and killed easily ...

 

[r16]

the 88 is not a miracle weapon , despite the good press . The reason for this ... is ... Napoleon .

who rose to prominence as an artillery officer , his victories to become Emperor apparently depended on his brilliant handling of artillery and reportedly he might still have won at Waterloo , if heavy rains had not delayed the movement of the French artillery . With which he might have pounded the British heavily enough to defeat them before the arrival of the Prussians . As such all armies knew and accepted the role of artillery was being in the vanguard of armies and fight at "close range" . And the French eventually made the perfect gun for it . Canon de 75 Modél 1897 and stuff . Like naturally perfectionist Germans rejected some recoiling system which the French like stole and played perfect counter-espionage to lull the Germans to prevent them discovering the true potential ... Which meant the Germans standardized on a weaker model . Which would then mean that when the 1910s came and Germans knew Russians would finish their programme for issuing thousands of Putilov 76.2 mm guns by 1916 and with that "the Russian steamroller" would be deemed ready for war , there was very little resistance to attack in 1914 .

all was not exactly lost on Germans . Their weaker field guns were also lighter . Now that you wouldn't move without artillery , this somehow made German units faster . And because the Germans had to beat the French first (to face the Russians in a "single front war") and there would be fortifications to defeat and howitzers were more useful for such engagements , the eventual Allied victory won with some great contribution by the French 75s , the Miracle at Marne and the start of trench warfare was a detriment to the Allies .

firstly the French 75 was unsuited to the conditions and it formed a massive percentage of the Allied artillery park . The Germans improved their weaker guns by placing them on howitzer mounts , increasing the range of their guns . The Allies kept attacking for years , hoping for a breakthrough to return to maneouvre fighting (and when that happened in 1918 , the 75s again massacred the Germans) .

to the advantage of Germans who had dug in on high ground during their retreat in 1914 . Meaning the Germans had less need to fly their planes for artillery spotting . Which meant a lesser need to fly over and beyond the Allied trenches . The British always attacked , fighting behind German lines . The French were more "professional" but made more planes . Greatly outnumbering the Germans when counting the British . Which then MEANT the Germans needed really good flak guns . Like instead of making do with using old guns , or indeed captured 75s or Putilovs ...

it is true that the first "strategic bombing" campaigns were run by the Germans . Which should have forced the Allies to match the German attempt . Which kinda sorta did . The WW II British mainstay of 3,7 inch gun is supposedly superior to the 88 . But as a "strategic defence weapon" , it wasn't as mobile and it was larger , making it a bigger target ... Never minding the thing that it performed best if some dudes had laid a concrete foundation for it first , before 1944 . Never minding it didn't like firing at low elevation , as in engaging hostile tanks . Never minding it had too many fancy and expensive stuff stuck on it ... And foremost of all , nobody in London had imagined 1940 as it was . France lost , Germans free to attack the British Isles from new directions with so many airfields , increasing the size of possible attacks ... There were "so few" of the British guns ... Quantity having a quality of its own , as Stalin said ...

hmm , yeah no pictures but lots of words . People might be even like ready to report this as off-topic . So , tanks but the good old 88 first . Now called Tourelle de Défense Tout Terrain or Marcheur AT-DT Impérial because you know , Napoleon



also

is tank

is tank



is still tank

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

As a military history enthusiast, your last two posts make me very happy!!

 

[Kyriakos]

The white insect is a biplane. It's from an old game (you controlled the biplane and this was the final boss).

Then again, considering it was meant to be defeated by a stupid biplane, it can't have been any good.

 

[r16]

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/hlci11

which ı actually saw before the "believable" version with the F-18 and ı take more "reasonable" because F-18 was so advanced in the 1980s that US pilots had trouble adjusting to all those multifunction displays and stuff . Each of them dumber than any phone today but it was the 80s ...

shows the game developers had more realism than Hollywood .

 

[Zardnaar]

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/hlci11

which ı actually saw before the "believable" version with the F-18 and ı take more "reasonable" because F-18 was so advanced in the 1980s that US pilots had trouble adjusting to all those multifunction displays and stuff . Each of them dumber than any phone today but it was the 80s ...

shows the game developers had more realism than Hollywood .

There's a lot of stories around.

Eg the F5 light fighter. USAF didn't think it was very good.

North Vietnam captured a few and sent some to the Soviets. In testing the pilots used it to outperform pretty much every Soviet fighter where it mattered. They liked it.

Different doctrines though. USA was moving to stand off attacks Soviets prioritized dogfighting and interception. Mig21 was the last great Soviet or Russian fighter.

So USAF ditched the F5 developed the F16/15/14 and from early 80s onwards have been getting very lopsided results in the air.

 

[r16]

the essence of the previous post is that ...

some guy who didn't fly fast jets since Vietnam , making it more than two decades by 1996 which is the year movie claims to take place

would probably find F-18 too hard because of the cockpit displays but not as hard as the '16 with its odd control column

hollywood would refuse to find an A-4/F-100 or indeed an F-4 for him to fly because such productions are indeed glorious examples of brain washing and stuff and they would not want to confuse youngsters who would be like to enroll in the US military services . Flying a fast jet like takes 18 months and stuff , in between 4 years of military training and the lot .

the guy has been busy suffering the required mockery about alien probes , which invariably involve a certain body part

meaning the guy would be ready and willing for the Kamikaze run , '96 being a period when suicide bombers were less popular and stuff

that he could convince people with his solid conviction that he would do everything

the realism argument could involve an idea that the biplane could not climb vertically . Or the strapped Maverick is too small . Or it wouldn't have the explosive power . But it is an Hollywood movie .

yes , ı have seen reports that F-16 deliveries are being expedited for some reason , so , yeah , ı can perceive the interest .

 

[r16]

oh , why not ? Jack Northrop's row with USAF starts with the VE day . He didn't like German experts placed within American companies . Not because he was jealous of Horten Brothers , because of some race about the title of having invented the Flying Wing but there were demonstrably better Germans . His flying wings B-35 and '49 were unable to compete with Boeing's B-47 ; for real and also for various episodes of sabotage . He was removed but the company he founded would never be first rank or whatever .

even with "the success of F-89" there was no way Northrop could "sell to USAF" . The precedessors of F-5 includes some rocketship to fly to the edge of space for astronaut training and naval fighters . The latter were sized small in order not to step on toes of important people in Pentagon and whatnot . When the USN gave up on the escort carriers of WW II , the market evaporated over night .

finally it was bought as a trainer . The T-38 . The era was also one of immense military aid to favoured countries . The MAP programme distributed thousands of old F-80/84/86s all over the globe . Similar activities bought hundreds of British Hawker Hunter jets and also French types with American taxpayer money . By 1960 Europe was rich enough , and becoming a competitor in airplane sales .

and despite the delivery of F-100 and 104s as nuclear delivery vectors , some odd feeling came to Pentagon about some quaint country situated in like Western Asia or something . When the T-38 was once again made a fighter , the aim was to make it cheap enough to gift it to tin-pot dictators freely . So that if they changed sides tomorrow , nothing would be lost . Because , you know , F-5 is really cheap and has no nothing on it . It most definitely can not carry a nuclear bomb , which was the only thing that mattered in the 1960s . Can reliably bomb guerillas in the mountains or the jungle . Can reliably fail to intercept American bombers if those guerillas win and America decides to intervene ...

the F-5E is the more capable second generation . Chosen to keep the flame alive as described above and be more effective in battle , because the French Mirages are selling like hot cakes by 1970 , Vietnam made a name for MiGs and USAF had already decided it would have the F-16 or the 17/18 , preferably F-16 because it looked less of a threat to F-15 , which was cleared for nuclear weapons from the very beginning . And , Northrop in its wisdom had paid money to Nixon's election campaign , so the F-5G path was impossible to follow .


meaning when you do not intend to go at Mach 2 , you can do wonders with regards to lift/drag and (in a rather lesser extent) thrust/weight . This is how the (now/then) North Vietnamese F-5 really played with the latest Russian Fishbed model in 1975 , because it wasn't burdened with stuff ... And this is also why the Russians later sent it to Warsaw because the Poles in the Warsaw Pact were liked tasked with developing the jet CAS stuff involving slower speeds , just like the Czechoslovaks were given the task of developing the trainers . Oh , it does have some F-5y stuff , but not clear to mere eyes ...

 

[Kyriakos]

 

[r16]

it is like nothing of the sort . Haven't played that game myself but ı assume it is just a rusted thing that lies around for the scenery . More likely comes from this , real life "proposal" , like some investigation whether it would work . Use it as a light tank . Or , if you fancy , make a train with two to become heavy ...



but no doubt would have looked futuristic which might not have helped the game aesthetics and stuff . Hence like totally one hull BUT two guns with twin sets of tracks . But then these are all pointless . We should strive for the truth !

Spoiler :

the Crabs are treacherous entities and they hate mankind . Even if they also propagandize that they are no different than those who fight them !


and they make all these computer games to sterilize the brains of the dimwitted because they don't even trust their human puppets ! All of these were shown to people in post #207 , in the previous page ! They hate Humans even more after one of their stooges (called Alexander) tried to sell them short after their inability to win in beyond Afghanistan and failure to advance against the Elephants in India ! When Alexander tried to find new allies ! As shown in this historical proof from 1200 something ! The crabs ate Alexander's ship ! Wake up sheep !

 

[Zardnaar]

it is like nothing of the sort . Haven't played that game myself but ı assume it is just a rusted thing that lies around for the scenery . More likely comes from this , real life "proposal" , like some investigation whether it would work . Use it as a light tank . Or , if you fancy , make a train with two to become heavy ...

View attachment 667833

but no doubt would have looked futuristic which might not have helped the game aesthetics and stuff . Hence like totally one hull BUT two guns with twin sets of tracks . But then these are all pointless . We should strive for the truth !

Spoiler :

the Crabs are treacherous entities and they hate mankind . Even if they also propagandize that they are no different than those who fight them !
View attachment 667834View attachment 667835

and they make all these computer games to sterilize the brains of the dimwitted because they don't even trust their human puppets ! All of these were shown to people in post #207 , in the previous page ! They hate Humans even more after one of their stooges (called Alexander) tried to sell them short after their inability to win in beyond Afghanistan and failure to advance against the Elephants in India ! When Alexander tried to find new allies ! As shown in this historical proof from 1200 something ! The crabs ate Alexander's ship ! Wake up sheep !

View attachment 667836

Can have gunners near them. They usually pack laser or plasma weapons.