[RD] Toronto van attack

[Synobun]

I typically don't consider "Recognize your place and don't be a douche to others" to be on par with becoming Usain Bolt so I'm not sure I can operate within your suggested premise.

Intelligent and fairly well-adjusted sociopaths base their entire modus operandi on fitting in. They don't feel it, or cannot process it like the rest do, but they learn to play the game in order to survive. A large portion of empathy is in how you respond to others, and that behaviour can be learned.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I typically don't consider "Recognize your place and don't be a douche to others" to be on par with becoming Usain Bolt so I'm not sure I can operate within your suggested premise.

People can have physical issues with their brain or chemistry that, outside external intervention, make some things impossible. People with psychological disorders of this nature can't will themselves into normalcy any more than I can will myself into regrowing a thyroid or you can will yourself into a 4.2s 40 yard dash.

I don't have the expertise to know which issues are like this, which is why I asked if we have any confirmed cases of straight-up instilling empathy on someone who demonstrably lacked it.

A large portion of empathy is in how you respond to others, and that behaviour can be learned.

What you're describing is learned behavior patterns. Yes, people who can learn can do this even lacking the typical emotions associated with doing them. It's not the same thing as processing thoughts the same as a normal brain, and we'd still anticipate different choices made in some contexts (particularly those where you can mitigate/remove apparent consequences/norms).

 

[Synobun]

Sounds like you're arguing against something I never said, then.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sounds like you're arguing against something I never said, then.

Actually it was intended exactly as written - a legit question because I don't know the answer and based on what you wrote I thought you might have seen evidence of such examples. The answer to my question would alter what behaviors/policies are viable, but it was not intended to refute or argue against anything.

 

[red_elk]

There is no clear distinction between "forceful re-education" and treatment of psychological disorder.

 

[Kyriakos]

Empathy tends to matter when shown to people you don't like. If you already like them, it isn't empathy.
A bit like how you can't be intolerant of stuff you like; you can be tolerant of stuff you don't actually like. Eg i don't like how most people operate, but i am not acting out that i don't like it.
Maybe when it will build up, i will spend quality time in creating a human-species-ending supervirus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Empathy tends to matter when shown to people you don't like. If you already like them, it isn't empathy.
A bit like how you can't be intolerant of stuff you like; you can be tolerant of stuff you don't actually like. Eg i don't like how most people operate, but i am not acting out that i don't like it.
Maybe when it will build up, i will spend quality time in creating a human-species-ending supervirus.

If you do that, try to constrain that to people you don't like.

And like me.

 

[Hrothbern]

Is empathy different, in those already provably lacking it? Do we have confirmed cases where empathy was provably instilled in someone who we know had none?

My two cents

* Empathy is not a binary thing that is there, or not there, or instilled to being there.
It is a gliding scale.
Similarity of level of empathy with other people more convenient for your comfort bubble
Diversity of empathy in a group in general more effective for the performance of a group
(value of diversity depending on situation/challenges faced by the group. In low needed change situations the whole group can go in equal empathy comfort bubble. Until change disaster strikes: too much empathy in a group can be quite suffocating and hinder out of the box thinking for needed solutions or simple real progress)

* Lack of empathy can have so many reasons.
Is it a lack of perception (by your mirror cells etc) from gene damage, or more extreme natural diversity ?
Is it the opposite: was your empathy too big and you got overwhelmed by outside emotions and you had to shut off drastically ?
Did you have a "normal" level of empathy and pschychological traumatical events happened. Roadblocks so to say ?

* There is emotional empathy, cognitive empathy and somewhere close compassion. What do we talk about ?

* Is your brain behind the mirror cells, or socially wired differently (going direction A-spectrum) ?
If you are wired in such a way that you feel comfortable with very defined fields of knowledge and interactions, and not feel comfortable with the more opaque and ambiguous social interactions, do seldom understand certain kinds of jokes.
Do you prefer "down to earth" situations where you can act or not, and switch off from hypothetical situations, philosophying ?
Do you prefer a pure technical job, with pure technical hobbies, similar discussion topics for the birthday parties, and for the rest your peace of mind with your sports paper and watching TV ?
Is that lack of empathy ?

On your question of confirmed cases.
I saw quite some HR assessments in my life (not the software apps, but real stuff with roleplay tests and all), and empathy was one of the things measured AND part of the evaluation discussion how to adress or improve if needed. Nothing out of the ordinary.

All in all: I think empathy is foremost an evolutionary based diversity increasing social characteristic on a gliding scale which you can and do change in practice during your life adapting to the situations at hand.
Sometimes trainings or help is needed. Sometimes that does not deliver much (and you use that as from HR angle to make clear to someone he lacks (proven) the chracteristics for a certain promotion)

Some have (too) little or little drive for it
Some have more or even too much and annoy others with their hype on it, talking those others into guilt to get more of it, as well as other negatives

Here a nice article about some negative side effect mechanisms on empathy:
https://www.fs.blog/2017/12/against-empathy/

 

[Yeekim]

Can people who genuinely lack empathy actually attain empathy, forcibly or otherwise? I wasn't aware this is possible.

You can re-educate psychopaths to not be psychopaths?

What couldn't we do with brain tech, I quote, "up to snuff" ?

 

[Farm Boy]

If you're playing around with the various meanings of snuff, that's a bit dark there, Yeekim.

 

[Yeekim]

Didn't consider the innuendo when I posted, but yeah.

 

[Disgustipated]

You can learn it. Humans aren't born out of the box with a nuanced perspective on empathy and expressing it.

I've learned it, so I'm certain it can be learned in the right conditions. But perhaps you still need a certain "base" standard of growing up to learn it. When I was a teenager, I admit my empathy skills were near 0, which is something older people commonly criticize teenagers about. It's something I picked up later in life and especially when in a relationship. But like I mentioned, I started with a good base and grew up with decent Christian values (though my household did have a lot of problems with alcoholism and drug use by a certain family member). People who were abused their entire lives probably will never develop empathy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What couldn't we do with brain tech, I quote, "up to snuff" ?

In seriousness, a real life equivalent to something like Rimworld's "joy wire" where you can make people's happiness baseline ridiculously high regardless of actual conditions opens up some unusual ethical questions. You could in equal parts make a case that giving people this tech to placate them is unethical, while denying it to them is also unethical.

Once you get into the realm of being capable of willfully altering individual utility functions outright (up to and including your own) things get pretty strange when viewed through today's lens.

 

[Farm Boy]

Joy wire? Interesting as we have lots of things that kinda work like that, all with differing side effects... and some similarities, don't we?

Spoiler :

I mean, MDMA doesn't tend to give people heart attacks when used properly, but I think they can "burn out" through extended use. I know marijuana hits saturation points where the balance shifts away from relaxation and euphoria to anxiety and depression. Visual sexual stimulation does too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Joy wire? Interesting as we have lots of things that kinda work like that, all with differing side effects... and some similarities, don't we?

This is direct brain alteration at the surgical level, so not really comparable. There's no addiction or overload. It's all joy, all the time...at the small price of a little bit your competency/consciousness, but who's keeping track? Presumably any IRL implementation would seek to avoid that, though it might prove difficult to motivate someone who's always more than content even in crappy situations.

 

[Farm Boy]

I mean if we stipulate it works, then I suppose it works. But I don't know if it's entirely plausible to raise somebody's baseline happiness "above mean" for extended periods of time? I mean, I guess we could go with "lobotomies solve stress" or something like that, is that more where we're going with it? Just destroy partial brain architecture that processes undesired competencies/emotions?

 

[Broken_Erika]

You could always go with Networked Medicinal Implants.
Praise Landru!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I mean if we stipulate it works, then I suppose it works. But I don't know if it's entirely plausible to raise somebody's baseline happiness "above mean" for extended periods of time? I mean, I guess we could go with "lobotomies solve stress" or something like that, is that more where we're going with it? Just destroy partial brain architecture that processes undesired competencies/emotions?

I doubt any idea implemented from a video game has similar functional implementation in practice.

That said, let's say we solve what makes people "want" something over something else and attain the ability to influence this. Control over this procedure and what is desired is society altering stuff, fun thought experiment.

 

[Farm Boy]

Tricky tricky. Will have to evaluate the process by which we arrive at things, rather than the process at the end.

Spoiler What's eating you, Earthman? :

 

[Kaitzilla]

... though it might prove difficult to motivate someone who's always more than content even in crappy situations.

Yup yup, stoners are happy all the time.
Freaking slackers.