[RD] Toronto van attack

[red_elk]

Hairdressers can absolutely refuse service to people who pose a risk or do not meet basic hygiene standards.

Yep, that's what I mean. If our "incel" doesn't look like a hobo, he should be fine with getting both services.

 

[Synobun]

Yep, that's what I mean. If our "incel" doesn't look like a hobo, he should be fine with getting both services.

If he doesn't display any of the warning signs of being a danger, then yeah, he'll have access to the service. What is your point leading to?

 

[Kyriakos]

If he doesn't display any of the warning signs of being a danger, then yeah, he'll have access to the service. What is your point leading to?

Maybe that this was already said to you, but you didn't like it.

^Ok, yet i think that the whole point of having sex workers, as you put it, is to make sex available to those who have difficulty getting it in other ways. So if there is freedom (beyond some obvious level, eg for safety) to choose if the sex worker will have sex with a client, that is taken away. Afaik there are levels, ie there are the legal ones (lower end being brothels, higher end being hotel/private visits) and the non-regulated (and certainly more dangerous both for client and worker) street ones.

There is research on sex workers and the usual mentality. Virtually all of them (both women and men) do this work to get money, and fast. Not because they like it. In fact they tend to heavily dislike it. The one perk is that it pays a lot more than most jobs, particularly for the time used, and lack of some of the qualifications.

 

[Synobun]

Again, what is the point leading to? What do you think you're saying in response to the overarching subject?

 

[Kyriakos]

Ok Synsensa. I give up. +1

 

[red_elk]

If he doesn't display any of the warning signs of being a danger, then yeah, he'll have access to the service. What is your point leading to?

That prostitution can indeed solve at least part of problems mentioned in the thread.

 

[Synobun]

That prostitution can indeed solve at least part of problems mentioned in the thread.

What problem do you think would be solved by prostitution? The belief that those within the Incels crowd are merely hankering for a bang is one that was already dispelled. The foundation of the philosophy places the believer as being deserving of their bounty. In this case, the bounty being whichever female has caught their eye. That is not fulfilled by paying a sex worker for a sexual service.

Those who have gone deeper into the rabbit hole cross the line into outright hating women, and again, this position isn't remedied by paying a sex worker for a sexual service.

"I have earned sex with (Woman X) and she is withholding what I deserve" does not seem to get solved by paying a prostitute.

 

[Evie]

That prostitution can indeed solve at least part of problems mentioned in the thread.

No, because the problem is not that they're not getting sex per se, but that they feel that women are deliberately denying them the sex (and adoration, and affection, and...) they've "earned" (according to them). If they have to pay for it, then it's not something they've earned, therefore, they're still being denied what they've earned.

It would probably be more accurate to say that what incels feel entitled is a woman to be their devoted (and very importantly, exclusive) wife/girlfriend/etc. They don't want to share ; they don't want sex sold as a service. They want their girl.

 

[Bootstoots]

It is not due to technical modernity. It's the political "modernity", the organization, that is causing this.

One interesting observation I picked from reading histories is that we've been here before. Humanity has been in the same kind of situation. What prompted the creation of the philosophical schools of cynicism, epicurism, stoicism? A search for meaning, or even only consolation, when the old social organization was being overthrown by the new world empire of the time. When power was being centralized, or at least moved further away from the common citizen. What promoted the reformation and the religious wars in the 16th century might have been the same process: the social effects of the commercial "globalization", the expansion of markets, at the time and how it rearranged life in Europe.

It's not people who adapt, who change their psychology, it seems to me at least that human psychology has been remarkably stable for as long as we have written history. it's the societies that mush be fixed after the periods of disruption, somehow, by changing or creating institutions.

That's true, the proliferation of different philosophical schools in Greece and Rome during the long period from the apex of the Greek city-states to the takeover of the Roman empire by Christianity points to a similar phenomenon. It probably doesn't even require institutional transformation - all of those schools were pretty strong throughout the period where the Roman Empire was at its height.

I don't think that the phenomenon of people seeking meaning and failing to find it is new. But the speed with which our transformation has happened in the last few decades, and the way that it has undermined the preexisting belief systems and social systems across all levels of society, seems unprecedented. The degree of social isolation from tight-knit groups of people - everything from extended families and religious groups to unions and service organizations - may be at an all-time record high as well. I don't believe society has ever been this atomized.

Technological change is clearly rushing this process along. Its speed has been such that the disruption is continuous, and new social structures can't really find their footing. There is no end in sight, either.

Atheism didn't just pop up in modern times. And in societies with multiple competing religions, which one are you suggesting was impossible not to believe in?

It used to be that nearly everyone followed the beliefs of their community, whatever that was, and that social ties were strong enough that people rarely fell out of them. Religious conversions and losses of faith certainly happened, but were rare. This was true (albeit less so) in multiethnic/multireligious cities as well as in the countryside. Literacy was low as well, and levels of exposure to other ideas were low even among the literate. The result was that most people considered their belief system obviously correct - they had little enough exposure to other ideas to have no choice but to believe it.

Scientific materialism is the best-supported belief system we have today, but a large fraction of people find it deeply unsatisfying. In particular, it has little room to meet the human needs for meaning or purpose. Philosophical attempts to extend it to satisfy these needs mostly don't work either. Many people can find enough meaning in human relationships or other things that this isn't a problem for them. But for those who can't, and who are isolated and have mental problems, the lack of meaning (or, just as bad, using some kind of fundamentalism to make life meaningful again) can lead to bad outcomes. Especially, for some reason, if they are young and male.

 

[innonimatu]

Do I sit in an office all day hunched over a computer because it pleases me, or because I feel I have to? What is the difference between the two except Victorian nonsense about sex?

No other difference? It makes it terribly tempting to ask why don't you change work if you actually believe that.

I don't think anyone is actually so naive as to believe that "sex work" is or will ever be an appreciated profession. Sex work among the extremes of commodification of the human: the intimacy of the body, the sex... that which most people regard as proper to give but never to sell, to obtain but never to buy, is to be traded and regulated as any other commodity. And the good "sex worker" will provide a full "service" of course: pretend interest in the client, appear cultivated, perhaps act as an escort to some social function - thus "love" passes into commerce. Why am I not surprised that the "rights" of "sex workers" are on the agenda or certain very liberal political groupings?

 

[red_elk]

What problem do you think would be solved by prostitution? The belief that those within the Incels crowd are merely hankering for a bang is one that was already dispelled. The foundation of the philosophy places the believer as being deserving of their bounty. In this case, the bounty being whichever female has caught their eye. That is not fulfilled by paying a sex worker for a sexual service.

In short, I think the source of this "philosophy" is sexual frustration. Yes, part of their crowd may have such bizarre and extreme beliefs as you described, but it is rather the result of frustration which is gone too far, or simply mental health issues. Vast majority of them just want sex and don't have social skills to get it in natural way.

No, because the problem is not that they're not getting sex per se, but that they feel that women are deliberately denying them the sex (and adoration, and affection, and...) they've "earned" (according to them). If they have to pay for it, then it's not something they've earned, therefore, they're still being denied what they've earned.

It would probably be more accurate to say that what incels feel entitled is a woman to be their devoted (and very importantly, exclusive) wife/girlfriend/etc. They don't want to share ; they don't want sex sold as a service. They want their girl.

I think even the craziest ones realize that it's impossible to force woman to like them if she doesn't.

 

[Synobun]

Why am I not surprised that the "rights" of "sex workers" are on the agenda or certain very liberal political groupings?

Are you certain you want to be going with this approach?

In short, I think the source of this "philosophy" is sexual frustration.

Maybe originally, years ago. Yet, such a problem is very easily solved. Even with the obstacles to legal access, getting an escort is easy if that's what you decide you want.

The difference, as Evie pointed out, is that it's not a simple matter of just getting sex from any willing warm body. There is an element of ownership and deserving involved that cannot be approached or remedied by purchased sexual relief. Today, the philosophy almost requires a belief that you're being conspired against and robbed of what you deserve. A prostitute does not improve this. If anything, she would make it worse.

 

[innonimatu]

That liberal has again come to mean enamored with the fantasies of markets everywhere and for everything? Unfortunately yes I am. No end in sight indeed, except perhaps in the UK where there is some faint possibility of hope.

But I've said what I had to say on this before, and this "sex worker" thing is an aside here.

 

[Kyriakos]

Basically, to think that incel is a good term to signify political movements or a subculture with set ties, is like thinking you can use emo or hipster for similar purpose. Web memes do not translate well to a logical examination of things. Add that to the inherently chaotic and individual differences in traits, of any group (ie including non-meme groups), and it is futile to use 'incel' as a basis to look at such things irl, beyond the individual level.

 

[Broken_Erika]

So, Incel's are Otaku who have succumbed to the dark side?

 

[red_elk]

The difference, as Evie pointed out, is that it's not a simple matter of just getting sex from any willing warm body. There is an element of ownership and deserving involved that cannot be approached or remedied by purchased sexual relief. Today, the philosophy almost requires a belief that you're being conspired against and robbed of what you deserve. A prostitute does not improve this. If anything, she would make it worse.

From what I read about the subculture, it's quite heterogeneous, includes people with different beliefs. The only thing all of them have in common is "involuntary celibacy", which in many cases can be a side effect of another problem, which is not necessary their fault. I guess many of them become miserable, start looking for support and find it only in this subculture of people with similar problems. What you and Evie describe is the most radical form, but perhaps most of these people should not be alienated and equalized with misogynists and mass-murderers.

 

[inthesomeday]

Basically, to think that incel is a good term to signify political movements or a subculture with set ties, is like thinking you can use emo or hipster for similar purpose. Web memes do not translate well to a logical examination of things. Add that to the inherently chaotic and individual differences in traits, of any group (ie including non-meme groups), and it is futile to use 'incel' as a basis to look at such things irl, beyond the individual level.

To me, incelism is no less logical or specific than fascism.

 

[Synobun]

From what I read about the subculture, it's quite heterogeneous, includes people with different beliefs. The only thing all of them have in common is "involuntary celibacy", which in many cases can be a side effect of another problem, which is not necessary their fault. I guess many of them become miserable, start looking for support and find it only in this subculture of people with similar problems. What you and Evie describe is the most radical form, but perhaps most of these people should not be alienated and equalized with misogynists and mass-murderers.

I can't take your observations seriously. It reads like someone who read a quick one or two sentence summary and then decided they had a solid grasp on the subject material. Have you interacted with any Incels? Read their actual discussions? It's not some random mish-mash of good old dudes who are a bit down on their luck. Their outlooks on life have warped beyond reason and they congregate together to propagate it, such as the "blackpill" or the Elliot Rodger manifesto. The basic premise of being an Incel, and self-identifying as such, requires misogyny. Mass-murder is the radicalized form, no doubt, and nobody is trying to claim that every Incel is a mass-murderer. It is, however, quickly developing to a point where radicalization becomes a group goal.

Spoiler :

https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/

Link is spoilered because while it's not inherently NSFW, you'll come across NSFW content and bad language. This is a sanitized gathering of Incels on Reddit. Their previous groups were banned and this one "plays by the rules" more than its predecessor did. Have a gander beyond the headlines and meme images and read some of the threads. Heck, just go to the top-voted threads and scroll through the comments.

It extends far beyond some down-on-their-luck lads commiserating over their difficulties with dating.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I don't think that the phenomenon of people seeking meaning and failing to find it is new. But the speed with which our transformation has happened in the last few decades, and the way that it has undermined the preexisting belief systems and social systems across all levels of society, seems unprecedented. The degree of social isolation from tight-knit groups of people - everything from extended families and religious groups to unions and service organizations - may be at an all-time record high as well. I don't believe society has ever been this atomized.

As long as we're talking in terms of several decades, I'll go along with the extended family point. Even in the early '70s, my classmates thought it was downright bizarre that I lived in a three-generation home and considered it normal. "You live with your grandparents? Eww, that must be WEIRD!" - like grandparents are three-headed, slimy aliens from another galaxy.

As a result of that, I've discovered that although I read a lot about people who live in nuclear families and watch a lot of TV where nuclear families are depicted, it's something that I really don't get. This caused some issues 35 years ago in my Ed. Psych courses in college, when we were assigned exercises and discussions of family structure and how kids of various ages fit into them (and how they perceive that they fit in). Some of the discussion questions might has well have been in another language, because they talked about experiences I couldn't relate to.


Since typing the above, I read a news article that was posted tonight on CBC.ca about a woman who discovered that she hadn't even been told of her youngest grandchild's existence when she was taken into the foster system. The mother was a heroin addict, and instead of contacting the grandmother and/or extended family, the social workers just put the kid into the foster system. Now the grandmother has to fight for custody with a set of foster parents who want to adopt the kid. It was not only unethical of the social workers to do this, it was actually illegal. But it doesn't look like any consequences are going to happen to the social workers... and the grandmother is stuck scrambling to find money to pay a lawyer to deal with this. The grandmother is already caring for this girl's three siblings, so it's just insane that the system wants to split up the family.

Technological change is clearly rushing this process along. Its speed has been such that the disruption is continuous, and new social structures can't really find their footing. There is no end in sight, either.

Gah. People who prefer communicating via social media, texting, etc. Granted, I'm not fond of phone calls these days, since so many are scam calls and no matter how many times I tell people not to call at certain times, they don't listen (they think, "She can't possibly mean me"). But if someone is physically in the room with me, I will actually talk to the person, rather than use electronic means.

I'm reminded of the Betty comic (Canadian comic about a family consisting of Betty, Bub, and their teenage son, Junior) in which Bub phones home and tells Junior to tell his mom that he's bringing home a pizza. Next thing you know, Betty's upset because she already started supper and wants to know why Junior didn't tell her about the pizza. The kid is flabbergasted and says, "I emailed, tweeted, and Facebooked you, what more do you want?"

Apparently just going upstairs and verbally communicating with her was out of the question. Of course as a regular reader I shouldn't be too surprised, since that family is often shown texting one another when all three are in the same room. The kid won't listen to his mother if she verbally tells him to do something, but he'll pay attention if she texts him.

It used to be that nearly everyone followed the beliefs of their community, whatever that was, and that social ties were strong enough that people rarely fell out of them. Religious conversions and losses of faith certainly happened, but were rare. This was true (albeit less so) in multiethnic/multireligious cities as well as in the countryside. Literacy was low as well, and levels of exposure to other ideas were low even among the literate. The result was that most people considered their belief system obviously correct - they had little enough exposure to other ideas to have no choice but to believe it.

What time frame are you referring to?

Scientific materialism is the best-supported belief system we have today, but a large fraction of people find it deeply unsatisfying.

I sincerely hope you are not saying this as though it's a religion.

 

[red_elk]

I can't take your observations seriously. It reads like someone who read a quick one or two sentence summary and then decided they had a solid grasp on the subject material. Have you interacted with any Incels? Read their actual discussions? It's not some random mish-mash of good old dudes who are a bit down on their luck. Their outlooks on life have warped beyond reason and they congregate together to propagate it, such as the "blackpill" or the Elliot Rodger manifesto. The basic premise of being an Incel, and self-identifying as such, requires misogyny. Mass-murder is the radicalized form, no doubt, and nobody is trying to claim that every Incel is a mass-murderer. It is, however, quickly developing to a point where radicalization becomes a group goal.

Spoiler :

https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/

Well, it's true that I didn't spent hours reading their forums, but reading few threads from your link didn't change my impression. There are different people. Take this thread, for example, not much hatred or misogyny, just a lot of self-pity:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Braincels/comments/8hfmzq/im_a_24_year_old_kissless_balding_virgin_54_this/