[RD] Toronto van attack

[Lexicus]

By the sound of things, they're all over the place.

Nah, they're a really small number of people. They basically want to create The Handmaid's Tale, literally.

 

[metatron]

Nah, they're a really small number of people. They basically want to create The Handmaid's Tale, literally.

Well... no... well... maybe.
Maybe they do, but it's a very bad idea, not just in general but for them.
Because in The Handmaid's Tale they don't get laid either and the obstacles for them to change that would be orders of magnitude bigger than they are in real contemporary society in the US or Canada.

 

[innonimatu]

The political goal is the incitement of an “incel rebellion”. “Incel” is a deeply political identity.

Deeply political?

People can't even distinguish the fads from the actual important political stuff? No it's not deeply political. It's just another iteration of the endless string of frustrated young idiots diving into something they think gives some "meaning" to their sorry lives. They can be used for political stuff (even ignite a nice little war somewhere), but left to their own devices they just waste a few years with some silly fad and (most) later grow out of it.
In this case there is no enduring structure supporting this silly idea, it's a fad. A meme if you want to use a modernish term. Will be forgotten soon enough.

Know how you create this? Manipulation 101: create inflated expectations on people's minds, then block them from achieving what they haven been sold on. Get them all worked up, and then plant on them the idea that [thing x you want attacked] is to blame for their frustrations.
The cause of this incel thing seems to be advertising, not any deep political ideology. It's "accidental", no one seems to have planned this particular outcome. But I'm sure it is regarded as a better distraction that previous fads, some of which (the occupies, the tea parties, etc) were kind of threatening to the powers that be. This one? A politically neutered distraction.

 

[inthesomeday]

“Political” doesn’t mean “in opposition to status quo”. Gender is political; masculinity is political. Masculinity as an identity is a political identity. Incels— effectively Masculine Supremacists— embrace the misogynist status quo and enforce it as a movement. This movement is political.

 

[innonimatu]

Everything is political, so what? There is nothing deep in this "incel" thing. No institutions with people pulling the strings, no overall organization, not lasting power. It's an accidental distraction.

The funny thing is, people like you created this accident. The people who keep talking about this and that identity created the intellectual framework to allow the discussion, the organization, of this "identity" you complain about.

It's identities everywhere, a dime a dozen, pick your own. Start your online group to talk about how fabulous it is! Recruit new members, proselytize. Feel that you are part of something big and important. And finally get bored and shop for another identity, rinse and repeat. Or grow out of it and get a life.

 

[miaasma]

yeah that's how it works

every nefarious social group only exists because people are talking about it, not because these groups create their own networks and fester underground

it's also weird that you'd talk about a group that practically worships elliot rodger and believes they're owed access to womens' bodies the same way you'd talk about any other facet of someone's identity

these things don't exist in a vacuum fyi

 

[inthesomeday]

Guys idpol is peak horseshoe. “Black lives matter”? More like “legalize rape” amiright

 

[Hrothbern]

two quotes from an article on the possible relation between the degree of civilisation and mood (depression etc)
The first one of Hesiod the normal generation issue of all time as a natural gap that self corrects within every generation.
The second one of Albert Einstein, what I also believe is happening, parallel and structural (!!!), including an approach to it I very much like.

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words"
-Hesiod, 8th century B.C.

"I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis in our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society… [His] position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society. The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evil"
-Albert Einstein, 1949

Modern social media can faciliate the grouping of any niche group, but I see the increase of incels and similar more coming from the increase of people uncomfortable with themselves in our society, a small minority of them finding an asocial way to manifest themselves.

From that article two graphs:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/

I miss in that article BTW the graph showing the correlation between mood and rate of cultural individualism-collectivism. My guess is that this would show clearly that more collective cultures, even including some negative surpressive effects from conformism, are better off.
Anyway the two graphs shown, show for me root causes that are more actionable to deal with.
Figure 2 with the Income Inequality shows that Income Inequality is bad for humanity
Figure 1 shows for me that we are lacking in dealing with all kinds of negative effects of the increased degree of civilisation, whether economical (like Fig. 2) or from other civilisation factors like ultra-processed food, urbanisation, scattering of prime social groups, lowering of social belonging, mono-value culture on economic capabilities of individuals in a competitive context, light pollution, circadian rhythm affections, etc, etc

These incels take the wrong turn, but we as a whole are responsible for not adressing the root causes well enough.

 

[Traitorfish]

People can't even distinguish the fads from the actual important political stuff? No it's not deeply political. It's just another iteration of the endless string of frustrated young idiots diving into something they think gives some "meaning" to their sorry lives.

I mean, that describes the majority of political violence since forever.

It's not really clear why it only counts as political violence if there's some cabal of old men in the background turning this impulse to their own ends. As if the political character of an act was something imbued by institutions and by leaders, and not something belonging to the act itself.

 

[Kyriakos]

I mean, that describes the majority of political violence since forever.

It's not really clear why it only counts as political violence if there's some cabal of old men in the background turning this impulse to their own ends. As if the political character of an act was something imbued by institutions and by leaders, and not something belonging to the act itself.

Tbh, though, it is somewhat of a terribly bad idea to present some tautology between incel, violence, and white supremacy - which is what some media seem to do. Also, one has to suppose that it won't help anyone if people who try to have a relationship and cannot (incel) are now made a terrorist group ^^

Next stop we will have Unsullied terrorism. "Think about it; those people lost their genitals, so now they hate women and want to kill minorities"

 

[red_elk]

So, what's the correct definition of incel?
a) Disgusting misogynists who think women owe them bodies.
b) Sexually frustrated people who are unable to get partner.

These are two very different definitions, while people in the thread using both of them, as it seems.

 

[Evie]

By the second definition, anyone who has a hard time finding a partner is an incel. Since that's a lot of people, the vast majority of whom don't identify as incel, it's clearly an insufficient definition.

The heart of the incel idea is people who think they are being denied sex by women. Not just sexually frustrated and unable to get a partner, but believing this is the fault of women who refuse to recognize their worth. Most of them won't go and say "Women owe us sex" (though many of them do say that), but the idea that their problem is women denying them sex doesn't make sense unless deep down they're convinced that women *should* be giving them sex. So "Women owe us sex" is inherent in the incel mentality, even if many incels would never think of expressing it that way.

 

[red_elk]

By the second definition, anyone who has a hard time finding a partner is an incel. Since that's a lot of people, the vast majority of whom don't identify as incel, it's clearly an insufficient definition.

The heart of the incel idea is people who think they are being denied sex by women. Not just sexually frustrated and unable to get a partner, but believing this is the fault of women who refuse to recognize their worth. Most of them won't go and say "Women owe us sex" (though many of them do say that), but the idea that their problem is women denying them sex doesn't make sense unless deep down they're convinced that women *should* be giving them sex. So "Women owe us sex" is inherent in the incel mentality, even if many incels would never think of expressing it that way.

I mostly agree, the second definition is too broad (and technically, includes women).
I think the ideas that they are being "denied sex by women" and that "women owe them sex" are very different too, but I got what you mean.

 

[God of Kings]

What do you think of sex tourism (such as to Amsterdam or to Bangkok) as a potential remedy for the incel movement?

 

[Synobun]

What do you think of sex tourism (such as to Amsterdam or to Bangkok) as a potential remedy for the incel movement?

Dangerous for sex workers and doesn't solve the problem. I keep seeing this recommendation crop up and it is disgusting each and every single time.

"Hey, you know what would solve this issue? Forcing sex workers to deal with it to keep it away from common society."

The problem is the individual adhering to Incel philosophy, not the women. Christ.

 

[Evie]

It won't do any good, because the problem is not lack of sex per se, but rather the impression of being denied something that they've rightfully earned. They (in their mind) deserve sex, on their own merit ; they are being denied that by people who don't recognize their value.

Having to pay for sex neither serves as recognition that they've *earned* sex (if they've earned it, they shouldn't have to pay for it), nor as revenge against those denying them what they've earned. It won't do any good.

 

[sophie]

So, what's the correct definition of incel?
a) Disgusting misogynists who think women owe them bodies.
b) Sexually frustrated people who are unable to get partner.

These are two very different definitions, while people in the thread using both of them, as it seems.

The second definition was the original coining of the term: a support network for lonely people of all identities. Eventually whiny, entitled white men came in and did the SOP for whiny, entitled white men: they made it all about themselves.

https://splinternews.com/un****able-women-dont-go-on-killing-sprees-1825746733

It won't do any good, because the problem is not lack of sex per se, but rather the impression of being denied something that they've rightfully earned. They (in their mind) deserve sex, on their own merit ; they are being denied that by people who don't recognize their value.

Having to pay for sex neither serves as recognition that they've *earned* sex (if they've earned it, they shouldn't have to pay for it), nor as revenge against those denying them what they've earned. It won't do any good.

It doesn't even have to do with a lack of sex. It has to do with a lack of sex with women they feel they're attractive enough to be accessing. Just look at the way certain elements of the Incel community has been trying to lay claim to Nicholas Cruz. Yeah he had a girlfriend, but she was an "incel-tier girlfriend".

 

[Lexicus]

Maybe they do, but it's a very bad idea, not just in general but for them.

Well, I'm not here to tell you that inceldom is a good idea for anyone concerned

What do you think of sex tourism (such as to Amsterdam or to Bangkok) as a potential remedy for the incel movement?

Somehow, I don't think this is going to solve the problem of them viewing women as objects for male desire rather than as autonomous individuals in their own right.

 

[innonimatu]

yeah that's how it works

every nefarious social group only exists because people are talking about it, not because these groups create their own networks and fester underground

it's also weird that you'd talk about a group that practically worships elliot rodger and believes they're owed access to womens' bodies the same way you'd talk about any other facet of someone's identity

these things don't exist in a vacuum fyi

So what is new under the sun and why should I worry? Remember those groups that went about cutting off heads, killing the men and enslaving and raping women, etcetera? Some here still want to regard them as "freedom fighters". Actually they were manipulated idiots.

These ones at least do not seem to be manipulated, the idiocy will move on soon enough. Not worth me worrying about it.

@Hrothbern, good quote and good observation there. But don't expect the people who protest discrimination and inequality while ordering the latest gadget on amazon to save a few dollars, to pay any attention. We live in a time when the cognitive dissonance is strong.
Actually, while I believe that idiocy such as this incel thing is just accidental, one of whatever possible morbid symptoms of our circunstances, the promotion of this to "major political issue" in the news is not accidental. Distractions, distractions, distractions... a couple of moths ago it was the mysterous skripals circus number, last week the euthanised kid, this week the incel thing... mass media is adept at promoting the relatively relevant so as to crowd out the dangerous.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The heart of the incel idea is people who think they are being denied sex by women. Not just sexually frustrated and unable to get a partner, but believing this is the fault of women who refuse to recognize their worth. Most of them won't go and say "Women owe us sex" (though many of them do say that), but the idea that their problem is women denying them sex doesn't make sense unless deep down they're convinced that women *should* be giving them sex. So "Women owe us sex" is inherent in the incel mentality, even if many incels would never think of expressing it that way.

Other than you, Evie, I seem to be the other woman in this thread. As a woman, I can say unequivocally that I don't owe anyone anything sexually. My body is my own and I will share it with whom I please. It's my right.