TreeSuccession 44

[batian]

yeah actually it was ´playable with core gaia's

 

[Tekamthi]

good to hear -- there is a lot of common code between the various .dll mods. Most (not all) are based on whoward's work from a ~decade ago; any that mention his work as their starting point might be compatible (after deleting .modinfo dependency, however this not necessary for Gaia mod). I am far less confident about vanilla compatibility.

for anyone trying this with another mod, you may want to keep firetuner open and check the console output every so often; if any part of this is failing 'silently' you'll at least see something in there

edit:

The civ community has always struck me as a particularly thoughtful group of gamers, but I think since we're game-ifying what is a great tragedy for some right now, it may be good time to consider some additional action. For those who are well-positioned to do so and enjoy this mod, please consider donating to a wildfire relief agency or fund, such as:

• Hawaiʻi People's Fund
• Hawaiʻi Workers Center and in the donation notes write “Lahaina Fires”
• Council of Native Hawaiian Advancement, Alaka'ina and Kakoʻo Haleākalā
• United Way NWT Emergency Response
• United for BC Wildfire Recovery Fund
• Canadian Red Cross Wildfire Appeal
• Firefighters without borders

 

[batian]

hey remember when i said to you that it works with gaia core mod? now when it grow samll trees it appears city ruins, and it doesnt grow forest or jungles

 

[Tekamthi]

hey remember when i said to you that it works with gaia core mod? now when it grow samll trees it appears city ruins, and it doesnt grow forest or jungles

hmm this symptom occurs commonly if a save game is loaded with different mod load order. Did you observe this in a newly started game without any re-loads? Is it possible a mod was added/removed (even if the final list of mods is the same) and the game reloaded afterwards? Unfortunately anytime those checkmarks in the mod menu are unchecked/rechecked, it usually breaks save games unless you can exactly replicate the order you clicked 'em when the game was saved; just a guess.

I haven't tried myself with gaia's mods but afaik there are others that have paired them successfully -- if you could double check the symptom by starting a new game with your current mod list and observing just long enough to see if the problem persists, without any saves/reloads, might help me understand the issue a little better.

 

[batian]

it was a new game
just the gaia core mod a this mod

 

[Tekamthi]

it was a new game
just the gaia core mod a this mod

Okay thanks for confirming; I will try this pairing myself, as it SHOULD be compatible. Afaik Gaia uses a recently-forked version of same DLL as we do here, with some added customizations, but it should be very similar by design -- the only other thing you might try in the meantime is to clear the civ cache folder, reload the mods, and then try new game.

There are a small number of "improvements" that are assigned the same integer ID value of 0 in civ databases for whatever reason, city ruins is one of them. I think the other is holy site, but I could be wrong. Sounds like somehow game engine is either assigning or reading value of 0 when looking up this mod's improvement IDs; however it's a bit of a mystery how this could be happening, and why it only works for spawning the growth but not converting them to forest -- anyway I'll have to reproduce the issue before I can assess further, may take me a bit.

Pls let me know if you attempt cache clearing and if it works or not

 

[batian]

yes i clear the cache, because its needed for starting gaia core mod and its submods

but the first game it was only gaia, and the second i tried this mod

 

[Tekamthi]

I am currently running Gaia core mod v490 and TreeSuccession 37.12, no other mods. Cannot reproduce the issue:

Spoiler :

I only played long enough to observe 1 forest growth and 1 jungle growth, but they seem to be working. I assume wildfire/smoke is working too, cuz they all use the same mechanism

Here's my next guess what may have gone wrong on your system: I gave an unnecessary instruction to delete the dependency from TreeSuccession -- I didn't realize previously, but Gaia uses the same mod ID as CP/VP so this is not actually necessary. Without the dependency, civ 5 engine will just guess which one to load first -- if it loads TreeSuccession first its possible some db changes get overwritten when gaia loads immediately afterwards. So you might try re-downloading the TreeSuccession mod, leaving the dependency in place. Note that this only changes anything IFF you deleted it from .modinfo file previously. If you didn't delete the dependency, then something else is going on, and I'll need more info on how to reproduce the issue.

Only other alternative I can suggest is doing full-check on civ files using steam integrity check.

 

[batian]

i fix it by downloading again this mod

 

[batian]

it appears it doesnt work with the sapiens submod of gaia core mod

 

[Tekamthi]

Its probably a mod load order issue again -- I will add reference to sapiens in future version, for now you could try adding one manually to .modinfo file (a dependency will work just as well, however must be deleted if you later want to use it without sapiens). Dependency is easier to add, so, for now add the following line to the dependencies section of the .modinfo file:

<Mod id="8cc52326-c6c1-4cb5-b24d-9bf489ce71d4" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="__Sapiens" />

 

[batian]

Its probably a mod load order issue again -- I will add reference to sapiens in future version, for now you could try adding one manually to .modinfo file (a dependency will work just as well, however must be deleted if you later want to use it without sapiens). Dependency is easier to add, so, for now add the following line to the dependencies section of the .modinfo file:

<Mod id="8cc52326-c6c1-4cb5-b24d-9bf489ce71d4" minversion="0" maxversion="999" title="__Sapiens" />

ok sadly it didnt work
thanks anyway
or maybe i did something wrong

 

[Tekamthi]

i got them both working together, its mod load order... it shouldn't be this much trouble though, I haven't had to do anything special on my side for any of these compatibility issues, just been clicking on mods as normal. I'd recommend nuking your cache, do full steam check, and reload your mods ensuring any overhaul mods are loaded first.

 

[batian]

i got them both working together, its mod load order... it shouldn't be this much trouble though, I haven't had to do anything special on my side for any of these compatibility issues, just been clicking on mods as normal. I'd recommend nuking your cache, do full steam check, and reload your mods ensuring any overhaul mods are loaded first.

gaia core + sapiens + this mod? with me it crash when i tried to load the 3 mods

 

[Tekamthi]

aye all 3 worked fine together, tested just long enough to see successional growth plots. To do this, I deleted cache, then in mod menu, i clicked gaia core, then sapiens, then treesuccession (i didn't follow Gaia's recommendation to load a game with just core 1st, I think this is a not-always-needed instruction, not sure). Seems to work, anyway; I am unfamiliar with all aspects of that mod, but from I could see it was all working together for ~20-30 turns

Gaia moderates a discord group related to that mod, you might find help there if these problems persist. I am under the impression that several there are using this mod with sapiens/gaia core successfully as well

I am running civ on win10; I don't imagine OS is the source of these compatibility issues, but I can't vouch for win11 or mac or linux etc.

 

[statusquo]

Hej, i didnt read the whole topic, so forgive me if this issue was mentioned.

It is kinda annoying to lose the vision, or have healing removed on key defensive position, but it seems for me, that
its rather hard to remove this fire. My first problem is that usually i remove it by making an improvement, but lumber mill doesn't come exactly from the get go..
One time, i removed burning forest, and still left with the burning grassland xD, and this doesnt really have sense, since it is the trees that are burning, so fire should be removed together with forest.
Second problem, is that i want to keep eye on my surroundings, and if fire is just around the border my worker cannot remove it, so depending on city placement and border growth,
this wildfire can stay there for decades and decades in term of game years
I just wonder, would it be possible or it is and i'm missing something, for the workers to just be able to remove it? And hopefully not be restricted to your borders?
And honestly i don't see why military units shouldn't be able to remove fire, sometimes in case of cataclysmic events army is used to restore order, so it would kinda
be a little realistic and make sense, however it would probably trivialise the whole issue But when worker removes it, it is kinda removed instantly, so i guess it wouldn't change that much.

I also wonder sometimes, if AI hasn't problem with targetting remove those wildfires. For me lack of possible healing when retreating is an serious concern, but for AI doesn't seems like it.
I also wonder, how those wildfires interact with Option in settings for worker to not remove improvements, which i use, since i dont want when AI remove something i placed intentionally.

Here is example of AI territory, there is kinda too much of those fires, like AI doesn't bother at all. I mean eventually probably AI should make lumber mills, but maybe
it is a problem of AI not making enough workers.

EDIT:
If this option about automated workers not remove improvements also works on AI it could be a problem, human sees that "fire" is not really an improvement, but
always when i build lumber mill on top of fire game ask me if im sure, so i guess implementation is as it is in fact an improvement.

 

[Tekamthi]

Amazing screenshot! Was looking forward to seeing some of these when I posted this mod. is this just with the default values?? Or have you cranked em up? It seems a little high # of simultaneous fires for default, though i have noticed an occasional freak occurence as well... it all just triggers off the in-game RNG function ultimately, so these mass fire events are unlikely but possible. If this happens too often and is undesireable, probably just a matter of dialing back the user options

There isn't really any built-in way to "remove" the fires, as there's no way to train the AI to use such an ability. Building a new improvement is one option I've intentionally left in place, as AI can potentially do this. Your experience with chopping the forest down is unintended -- I think I can fix this -- anyway chopping the forest should also clear the fire, will work on this.

The whole wildfire mechanism is stretching what civ 5 engine really wants to do. So in this sense the design ideal I followed was to make more about being part of the terrain, and less interactive -- the malus was selected to be somewhat thematic without having TOO much impact, temp vision and healing malus struck me as annoyances rather than game changers, and thus a good fit. But it could be changed/lessened. Open to suggestions for what the malus should be.

As far as options to remove the fires, I'm not against adding mechanisms for this, but we'd have to think about them in a clever way so that its not a human-only feature. As you alluded to, the AI doesn't really know what a wildfire is, that it's a bad thing. All it sees is an improvement with a small negative tile yield. I don't think it has any basis to understand a negative "improvement" at all, one of its fundamental assumptions is that improvements are good (before i disabled the ability to pillage, attacker AI would pillage the wildfires in enemy territory). In this regard I think if you set it to avoid building on existing improvements, it will likely never touch them, even if we gave them some alternative. That said, where the non-human-AI does replace improvements, I believe it will have the ability to recognize that replacing a wildfire with a lumber mill would be something it should do -- we need eyes on this "in the wild", to confirm how they behave -- it probably won't ever be a high priority to them the way we as humans might see a fire as an emergency.

To be AI accessible, any fire fighting mechanism would have to be somewhat of an automatic feature of something else they do. For example, AI is good at building buildings, it may be possible to have a fire service building that has x% chance per turn to extinguish any fires in its territory. Or a unit that starts its turn fortified in a plot with fire could extinguish the fire automatically. Worker that starts turn in plot with fire could extinguish it. AI will still not specifically know to do these things but will maybe do them anyway by accident.. I'm okay with such features, this is really the only way to give the AI new abilities as modmodder. It may have some advantage to human, but this is the way of many VP features... Anyway at this stage I need more ideas and scrutiny on any theory crafted fire fighting before I implement.

 

[statusquo]

Was looking forward to seeing some of these when I posted this mod. is this just with the default values?? Or have you cranked em up?

Yea, those were default values. I'm not sure, but as i understand, those fires should be present only for like few turns, no "millennium fire"
I didn't do a "doctorate" about how this mod should work, but playing with it like 2 games already, and it seems fire should turn into smoke after like not sure lets say 6 turns, right?
But i experienced, that many times, they just don't disappear.. Thou i don't keep track of them that much.
Also there were at least two incidents, when the debuff didn't go away after i go out of the fire. I even entered some other fire hoping this time it will go away, eventually i think i disbanded this unit.

My assumption i that those fires dont disappear, so they kinda "accumulate", and the AI doesn't mind until it needs to do a lumber mill..

 

[Tekamthi]

playing with it like 2 games already, and it seems fire should turn into smoke after like not sure lets say 6 turns, right?
But i experienced, that many times, they just don't disappear..

yeah this is odd! I have not noticed this necessarily, only occasionally a peculiar concentrations of fires, which I attribute for now just to RNG outliers.. but every fire i've ever paid attention to has burnt out eventually. Pls let me know if you observe this again. Either saves & logs or even with just a small series of screenshots, i might figure out whats going on.

Also there were at least two incidents, when the debuff didn't go away after i go out of the fire. I even entered some other fire hoping this time it will go away, eventually i think i disbanded this unit.

just to make sure, you are using the most recent version at the link in OP (i should probably clean up OP, will do shortly)? Earlier versions did indeed have trouble with removing the promotions. To figure this out, I'd have to understand more about the unit's interaction with the smoke/wildfire; like did it move into fire, or did fire spawn on unit? did it move out of of fire? or did fire just burn out while it stood on it? stuff like that

My assumption i that those fires dont disappear, so they kinda "accumulate", and the AI doesn't mind until it needs to do a lumber mill..

yeah, this is expected, as they're just "improvements" -- unless it has another improvement that does a better job, AI doesn't care. The fires should burn out though, on default settings, shouldn't accumulate really. They do spread in rare instances on default settings, but even then it shouldn't be the same plot burning forever. I've noticed sometimes one fire will spread 2-3 times, which is odd given how low this chance is set to, but again i believe this just RNG outlier

as far as AI goes, I think first step is to tune the malus so it is not too impactful, just enough to give the fires flavor, so that it doesnt matter that AI ignores them. If I ever find a way to get them to pay attention to them, then the malus can be incresed.

 

[BornDownUnder]

as far as AI goes, I think first step is to tune the malus so it is not too impactful, just enough to give the fires flavor, so that it doesnt matter that AI ignores them. If I ever find a way to get them to pay attention to them, then the malus can be incresed.

What if the malus was detrimental to happiness, or perhaps a negative towards to growth for the city?

Both of these I feel would fit quite well thematically in game as the real life variant certianly contributes to to both.

The ai seems to generally do pretty well with keeping ontop of both of these yields.