Trump Scraps Iran Deal

[Hrothbern]

Hmm, do you have uncanny feelings against the united states as well?

I prefer a world order that is secular and based on respect for sovereign countries.
If both principles are violated it gives me that uncanny feeling.
The US does respect the secular world order, but much too often does not respect the sovereignity of other countries. I consider that as bad, but not uncanny.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I prefer a world order that is secular and based on respect for sovereign countries.
If both principles are violated it gives me that uncanny feeling.
The US does respect the secular world order, but much too often does not respect the sovereignity of other countries. I consider that as bad, but not uncanny.

That "respect for the secular world order" is dubious at best.

 

[rah]

respect for the white world order

FTFY

 

[Hrothbern]

That "respect for the secular world order" is dubious at best.

I should have worded it as the secularity of the world order.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

White protestant world order, more like.

 

[Angst]

US interventionist policies are not solely secular in nature. Not even close, actually. For right-leaning interventionists, active foreign policy of the US is pretty much aligned with Midwestern conception of Christian morality. Yes, it includes opposition against de jure theocracies, but also non-capitalist nations, and capitalism is a huge component of the religious considerations of the US right.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

US interventionist policies are not solely secular in nature. Not even close, actually. For right-leaning interventionists, active foreign policy of the US is pretty much aligned with Midwestern conception of Christian morality. Yes, it includes opposition against de jure theocracies, but also non-capitalist nations, and capitalism is a huge component of the religious considerations of the US right.

If you think US policy reflects any opposition to theocracy you are wrong. If it is a Judeo-Christian theocracy the US is all for it.

 

[Hrothbern]

A clear affinity with White Protestant... yes
Do I like that ? No.
but nothing comparable to Iran

 

[Angst]

If you think US policy reflects any opposition to theocracy you are wrong. If it is a Judeo-Christian theocracy the US is all for it.

I think you misunderstood my post. I should perhaps have emphasized more how US interventionist is Christian interventionism in the part about "de jure theocracies" over just saying theocracies. I wasn't quite clear about that aspect of it. I meant to imply that US secularism is overstated when it comes to de facto cultural and political practices within the States.

And in regards to foreign theocracies, as you outlined... Basically, I agree.

 

[r16]

iran has been fighting the West for like 2500 years now ? Defeating Iran is a priority and stuff , despite it has very long been a part of this "famous" World order , not new only in name . So , while they are very active conspiracy wise , they are not the bogey America makes them . Remembering right on that they were defined with towels in Reagan's time and Israel and America were "arming" both them and the Iraqis .

 

[metalhead]

Iran is a country ripe for secular modernization. A decade of sanctions relief would have been a huge security boon for the entire region. The Israelis seem hell-bent on disrupting this at all costs, regardless of the damage it does to either Iranian people, or the overall security even of their own homeland. Trump is far too ignorant to do anything but whatever Netanyahu tells him to do. The American president is nothing more than a tool of Israeli militarism and aggression. Sad.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Remember how I held up ZTE as a prime example of the broad reach of the executive when it comes to sanctions?

Yeah well Trump just announced he would help bail them out of trouble to save Chinese jobs - even though they were stealing IP to destroy American ones. It turns out the Chinese are suspected of promising his organization lots of new business if he eased up on their criminal organization.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Remember how I held up ZTE as a prime example of the broad reach of the executive when it comes to sanctions?

Yeah well Trump just announced he would help bail them out of trouble to save Chinese jobs - even though they were stealing IP to destroy American ones. It turns out the Chinese are suspected of promising his organization lots of new business if he eased up on their criminal organization.

Trump is a better deal maker than that. The Chinese delivered a billion dollars to the Trump Organization up front before the ZTE bailout was announced.

 

[historix69]

iran has been fighting the West for like 2500 years now ? Defeating Iran is a priority and stuff , despite it has very long been a part of this "famous" World order , not new only in name . So , while they are very active conspiracy wise , they are not the bogey America makes them . Remembering right on that they were defined with towels in Reagan's time and Israel and America were "arming" both them and the Iraqis .

Much of our ancient view on Persia is based on greek propaganda. Alexander the Great was overwhelmed by the culture found in Persian Empire.

Modern history (20th century) of Iran was strongly influenced by Imperial Great Powers like British Empire, Russia/Soviet Union and USA :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Russian_Convention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_Persian_coup_d'état
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War

The ongoing religious conflict between sunni and shia Islam also has a major influence on alliances and hostilities in the region.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

 

[Angst]

I also find the idea of overtly villifying Iran despicable. They indeed have a lot of problems right now, but the idea of it being an intrinsic enemy of the West for 2500 years is just weird to me.

In regards to the ancient Macedonian invasion of Persia... Calling Alexander "great" is true in the sense of his military accomplishments, but he was really nothing more than an infantry-touting Genghis Khan. Persia was a much more pleasant and much more prosperous place to live than Alexander's dumpy Greece. We glamourize Alexander to a ridiculous degree in European history, even at the university level.

 

[red_elk]

Next time you guys say that "300" wasn't a historically accurate depiction of Persians...

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I also find the idea of overtly villifying Iran despicable. They indeed have a lot of problems right now, but the idea of it being an intrinsic enemy of the West for 2500 years is just weird to me.

In regards to the ancient Macedonian invasion of Persia... Calling Alexander "great" is true in the sense of his military accomplishments, but he was really nothing more than an infantry-touting Genghis Khan. Persia was a much more pleasant and much more prosperous place to live than Alexander's dumpy Greece. We glamourize Alexander to a ridiculous degree in European history, even at the university level.

Especially since much of the hatred for them in the US was the result of political posturing. Yes, storming the embassy and holding hostages was an egregious violation of international norms that they should have been punished for. But that act was used as a political bludgeon to attach Jimmy Carter and Democrats in general to the point where both sides will continue to treat Iran as a pariah no matter what they do simply because no one wants to be seen as 'soft'. We even bankrolled Saddam's murderous war on them where they were hit with freaking chemical weapons and yet they will always be the bad guy.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Especially since much of the hatred for them in the US was the result of political posturing. Yes, storming the embassy and holding hostages was an egregious violation of international norms that they should have been punished for. But that act was used as a political bludgeon to attach Jimmy Carter and Democrats in general to the point where both sides will continue to treat Iran as a pariah no matter what they do simply because no one wants to be seen as 'soft'. We even bankrolled Saddam's murderous war on them where they were hit with freaking chemical weapons and yet they will always be the bad guy.

And then sold them weapons 'cause they didn't want their boogeyman to get defeated too easily.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And used the proceeds to illegally fund a terrorist organization in Central America!

And now the guy who took the fall for it is running the NRA. Truth is weirder than fiction.

 

[Broken_Erika]

They weren't terrorists! They were "Freedom Fighters"