[RD] Trump's Nothingburger Tax Cuts

[Berzerker]

Yes.

You brought it up, post your link. Seems like an indictment of the tax cuts, true?

I'd imagine they will, like the saftey regulations imposed from the worlds worest oil spill that killed 11 people or the banking regulations put into place after the bailouts, or more efficent cars with better mileages, or regulations for paying over time or requirements for banks to inform clients about fees. /s

So you think Trumps tax cuts will work because the US will now impose tarrifs ?
Trades wars are good and easy to win ?
I dont see it

But We'll find out as those will have their effect later.

This country was built on tariffs, it was built on protecting production. The main reason why foreign corporations built factories here is we told them to or face tariffs or other barriers. China et al has absorbed millions of our jobs and we buy their production. I didn't say it was good or bad, but regulations do restrict production. I dont have a problem with regulations in general, but it does stand to reason removing some will increase the effectiveness of investment.

A tax cut to GM will leave them with more money to invest, but it wont help create many jobs here if they invest that money in Mexico. Thats where tariffs come in... They're 'incentives' to invest here. One reason we bled so many jobs was the Cold War, we wanted our allies to have stronger economies. We invested in them for national security reasons.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This country was built on tariffs, it was built on protecting production. The main reason why foreign corporations built factories here is we told them to or face tariffs or other barriers. China et al has absorbed millions of our jobs and we buy their production. I didn't say it was good or bad, but regulations do restrict production. I dont have a problem with regulations in general, but it does stand to reason removing some will increase the effectiveness of investment.

A tax cut to GM will leave them with more money to invest, but it wont help create many jobs here if they invest that money in Mexico. Thats where tariffs come in... They're 'incentives' to invest here. One reason we bled so many jobs was the Cold War, we wanted our allies to have stronger economies. We invested in them for national security reasons.

Welcome to every single developing country, with their IP theft and protectionism see South Korea, Japan etc etc etc
Its sad and funny that you are now for regulation that have just been stripped away.

Its also funny that Republicans champions of free trade, creators of NAFTA was non other then Reagan.

Like I said Obama suggested a tax on corporation that offshore and this was stopped by Republicans, so now you decide that tarriff is a far better idea. We'll now were going to see how well this is going to work out.
Your not a Deploreable, your smart enough to see what is happening with this current tariff statergy and how the Trump administration is handling it.

 

[Berzerker]

Welcome to every single developing country, with their IP theft and protectionism see South Korea, Japan etc etc etc
Its sad and funny that you are now for regulation that have just been stripped away.

Its also funny that Republicans champions of free trade, creators of NAFTA was non other then Reagan.

Like I said Obama suggested a tax on corporation that offshore and this was stopped by Republicans, so now you decide that tarriff is a far better idea. We'll now were going to see how well this is going to work out.
Your not a Deploreable, your smart enough to see what is happening with this current tariff statergy and how the Trump administration is handling it.

It was just a matter of time before the GOP went populist and protectionist, thats the 2nd leg of the old Democrat base after the southern strategy. But its understandable, with Reagan we had the Cold War - excessive tariffs on our allies would push them away and possibly to the USSR. The wall came down and our allies became less and less important after they recovered from WWII and the Cold War ended. We could bleed only so many jobs before a rebellion at the ballot box. Trump won because he was gonna deal with trade. Thats my take on it...

Unfortunately its like 2 games of chicken going on at the same time. How far can we go before threats and negotiations become an actual trade war. And how much is Wall St willing to put up with it. Wall St will lose out in a trade war, these corporations have spent years and wads of money investing in foreign production. All those factories that left the US lose value if tariffs are placed on their production. We wont see serious re-investment in this country from tax cuts alone, albeit every bit helps, tariffs will spur money pouring into new factories here.

Personally I'm more inclined toward free trade, but thats on moral grounds. I also believe in fair trade though, and that complicates the picture for me. What does a free trader do if trading partners are protectionists? Match their trade barriers? Politicians would rather tax imports than domestic production, especially if tariffs on our exports are higher. I'm just surprised it took this long before protectionism built up enough momentum, it just needed a right wing populist to step up.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You brought it up, post your link. Seems like an indictment of the tax cuts, true?

No, actually, because as has been pointed out to you MANY times it has nothing to do with the tax cuts and your request is apparently just part of your continuing effort to hijack the thread.

A tax cut to GM will leave them with more money to invest

The idea that taxes were "creating a shortage of money to invest" is laughable, since investments are deductions and reduce the tax burden. Lowering taxes leads to less investment, and more taking of profits. The fact that no matter how many times you have this pointed out to you you just keep repeating the same tired falsehoods indicates that @FriendlyFire is giving you too much credit.

 

[EnglishEdward]

If taxes are high, cutting them may well generate investment and profit taking for a small immediate loss of government tax revenue.

If taxes are low, cutting them the primary effect is to lose government revenue both immediately and long term. There may be some
investment, but that is likely to be inflationary i.e. in asset purchasing rather than in expanding productive capacity, as well as profit taking.

The USA generally seems to be a low tax economy. So I doubt that tax cutting can have much overall benefit.

Like I said Obama suggested a tax on corporation that offshore and this was stopped by Republicans, so now you decide that tarriff is a far better idea..

These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

The Republicans opposed Obama's suggestions merely because he was Obama.
I wonder if the Democrats are going to oppose Trumps' ideas merely because he is Trump.

 

[FriendlyFire]

It was just a matter of time before the GOP went populist and protectionist, thats the 2nd leg of the old Democrat base after the southern strategy. But its understandable, with Reagan we had the Cold War - excessive tariffs on our allies would push them away and possibly to the USSR. The wall came down and our allies became less and less important after they recovered from WWII and the Cold War ended. We could bleed only so many jobs before a rebellion at the ballot box. Trump won because he was gonna deal with trade. Thats my take on it...

Unfortunately its like 2 games of chicken going on at the same time. How far can we go before threats and negotiations become an actual trade war. And how much is Wall St willing to put up with it. Wall St will lose out in a trade war, these corporations have spent years and wads of money investing in foreign production. All those factories that left the US lose value if tariffs are placed on their production. We wont see serious re-investment in this country from tax cuts alone, albeit every bit helps, tariffs will spur money pouring into new factories here.

Personally I'm more inclined toward free trade, but thats on moral grounds. I also believe in fair trade though, and that complicates the picture for me. What does a free trader do if trading partners are protectionists? Match their trade barriers? Politicians would rather tax imports than domestic production, especially if tariffs on our exports are higher. I'm just surprised it took this long before protectionism built up enough momentum, it just needed a right wing populist to step up.

You Think NAFTA was because Mexico and Canada was going to possibly join the USSR ?
You think that US Steel production holding steady since NAFTA but sheading half of it workforce is because of Free Trade ?
You believe Canada and Mexico are putting up trade barriers and engaging in unfair trade practices cheating the US, can you list them ?

You know that Foreign investment in the US out strips US investment overseas right ?
You want consumers to pay for the tariffs as opposed to Obama plan which was to get coporations moving overseas to pay for taxes ?

At least you are aware that the retalitory tarriffs are coming and will probably negate economic gains as other sectors get it good and hard.
Iam suprised that Republicans champions of free trade and big business are willing to do a complete 180 turn under Trump.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Do people also forget that the provisions of this tax bill expire in 2025, and the government is already in a 1-trillion dollar deficit? After 2025 the taxes will not just have to go to the old levels, but they will have to be increased even further to compensate for the huge deficit, or else the economy might collapse entirely.

Conveniently, 2025 is right after 2024, which would be the end of Trump's second term (and we all know he is gonna get elected twice).

 

[uppi]

At least you are aware that the retalitory tarriffs are coming and will probably negate economic gains as other sectors get it good and hard.
Iam suprised that Republicans champions of free trade and big business are willing to do a complete 180 turn under Trump.

It's questionable whether there would be economic gains in the first place. This will certainly increase costs of steel an aluminum in the US, hurting all sectors that use steel or aluminum in their products.

Meanwhile the retaliatory tariffs will be on end products and will not shoot the domestic industry in the foot. These tariffs will benefit the steel and aluminum industry and hurt everyone else in the USA.

 

[onejayhawk]

This thread is not about job creation but about corporations' failure to us their massive tax breaks to invest in themselves, e.g. more factories, better products, streamline delivery systems employee development.

The job creation is squarely on point. It's a counter-argument to corporate failure. More jobs is as much a corporate investment as more equipment. It is also employee development.

J

 

[Lexicus]

Do people also forget that the provisions of this tax bill expire in 2025, and the government is already in a 1-trillion dollar deficit? After 2025 the taxes will not just have to go to the old levels, but they will have to be increased even further to compensate for the huge deficit, or else the economy might collapse entirely.

Conveniently, 2025 is right after 2024, which would be the end of Trump's second term (and we all know he is gonna get elected twice).

The economy is not going to 'collapse' because of the deficit, that is a lie someone told you.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The job creation is squarely on point. It's a counter-argument to corporate failure. More jobs is as much a corporate investment as more equipment. It is also employee development.

J

We should have expected that one thread jacker would pass the baton to another. The reasons that it isn't "on point" have already been put forward. If you can explain how this "evidence of how effective the tax cuts are" was HIGHER BEFORE THE TAX CUTS THAN AFTER, then feel free. Otherwise, shut up about your unrelated pet "good thing" and stick to the topic.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

The economy is not going to 'collapse' because of the deficit, that is a lie someone told you.

I don't mean a total collapse of civilization and descend into anarchy. I mean another big recession like we had in 2008, but probably much worse.

It’s almost like people with tons of capital benefit from running the economy into a huge recession every decade or two so they can buy up assets on the cheap and consolidate even more wealth into a small number of hands.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It’s almost like people with tons of capital benefit from running the economy into a huge recession every decade or two so they can buy up assets on the cheap and consolidate even more wealth into a small number of hands.

Isn't it though?

 

[Yeekim]

the EU corporate tax

There is no such thing.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't mean a total collapse of civilization and descend into anarchy. I mean another big recession like we had in 2008, but probably much worse.

Yes, okay, fortunately you're wrong about that too. Public debt/deficit ain't the driver of recessions.

 

[onejayhawk]

There is no such thing.

There is.

 

[Yeekim]

There is.

That's a flag.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

At what point will wages begin to outpace inflation? I mean, are they even keeping up with inflation as it is now? Employment has been good since the end of the recession but wages haven't taken off as we would expect them too. Hell, it seems like wages haven't made meaningful gains in decades.

 

[Lexicus]

At what point will wages begin to outpace inflation? I mean, are they even keeping up with inflation as it is now? Employment has been good since the end of the recession but wages haven't taken off as we would expect them too. Hell, it seems like wages haven't made meaningful gains in decades.

Not until there is a major shift in the balance of bargaining power toward workers:

Real average hourly earnings for all employees were unchanged from March to April, seasonally adjusted, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. This result stems from a 0.1-percent increase in average hourly earnings being offset by a 0.2-percent increase in the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U). Real average weekly earnings decreased 0.1 percent over the month due to no change in both real average hourly earnings and the average workweek.

(source)

 

[civvver]

At what point will wages begin to outpace inflation? I mean, are they even keeping up with inflation as it is now? Employment has been good since the end of the recession but wages haven't taken off as we would expect them too. Hell, it seems like wages haven't made meaningful gains in decades.

Mine have but healthcare premiums keep going up way too fast, meaning my 3,4,5,6% raises look more like 1,2,3% raises.

Personally getting ~$300 more in my take home pay from the tax cuts so yeah for me? Turned around and spent it on weekend getaways with the fam, a birthday party, etc. So I'm doing my part and consuming domestically!