[Tuning] Policies: Imperalism

[Gazebo]

Fair enough, that's why I would advocate simply dropping it. The tree is getting a new perk for culture/tourism, so I feel dropping its only diplo augmentation would keep the tree from feeling like it's spread too thin.

Fair enough, I'm not aware of any new Puppet changes down the pipe. I can't argue in good faith if you aren't forthcoming with that information, however. Merely telling me I don't have the full story when you are the only one who can provide it feels cheap.

If luxuries yielded +4-5 gold when worked by puppets, I think that would fit the motif, would make puppets situationally useful in a way that cities you control aren't, and it would be relatively simple to add.

I'm not withholding anything - I don't have anything to share at the moment. Generally, though, I intend to bring puppet penalties down (or up?) a bit to make them a bit more competitive. Somewhere between what they were (OP) and what they are (UP).

G

 

[Stalker0]

That's fair, but I equally worry that having two policies with the same bonus will be viewed as uninteresting.

G

Several other trees have the same bonus...such as growth in tradition and rationalism. And artistry and imperialism are such different trees I don’t think you’d have a lot of overlap concerns

 

[Deadstarre]

Several other trees have the same bonus...such as growth in tradition and rationalism. And artistry and imperialism are such different trees I don’t think you’d have a lot of overlap concerns

but those are actually additive and complementary. now if i was someone taking artistry into imperialism, i'd feel like im missing out on a significant benefit of the tree entirely *shrug*

 

[Gazebo]

but those are actually additive and complementary. now if i was someone taking artistry into imperialism, i'd feel like im missing out on a significant benefit of the tree entirely *shrug*

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at with it as well. Besides, artistry DOES get a big tourism bonus from antiquity sites - increasing that to compensate for losing out on hidden sites would be a nice trade off (you can then go imperialism if you want to get extra potent hidden sites).


G

 

[ElliotS]

Generally, though, I intend to bring puppet penalties down (or up?) a bit to make them a bit more competitive. Somewhere between what they were (OP) and what they are (UP).

I think making puppets not affect happiness at all, and grant only 25% science/culture/gold would be a perfect middle area. Then this policy could increase puppet yields by 15%, or add 1 happiness per puppet to your capital.

That's fair, but I equally worry that having two policies with the same bonus will be viewed as uninteresting.

G

Given the nature of hidden antiquity sites I feel like most of the time the people going artistry would take 90% of them regardless.

As for the suggested changes: I don't think they adequately solve the issues the tree faces.

• Opener: I still don't like it. All units should get the +1 sight.
• Scaler: Good.
• Finisher: That really steps on Authority's toes, doesn't it? Also if the stuff on kills applies only to naval units feels very underwhelming.
• Martial Law: I've made my point on puppets above
• Exploitation -> This seems like a better place to put the yields. Cities with a lot of coast don't have as much farms, and visa-versa. The policy still feels weak because only ~1/2 it's bonuses work in any given city.
• Regimental System -> I know you're moving the GG/GA bonuses to artisty but I do think there's something deeply ironic about how the only part of the whole tree I thought was very well designed and synergistic is slated to be removed. More GGs into buffed citadels was a good idea, and the yields on stuff were good. Forts yields still suck though. Not sure what to do about them, if anything.
  • Also that Voyage of discovery buff is very lackluster. It's not too often I go warmongering and have enough good trade partners to make use of extra luxuries from voyage. Also heal is even worse with this.
  • I really think heal needs to provide yields. (Based on amount healed if possible.) It can be such an epic sweep that tales should be written, songs sung and books written on the glorious maneuvers. It just feels like a massive waste right now. Also it should heal to 2 tiles. (Maybe 50% on the second ring, but AI might have a harder time with that.
  • The Voyage buff should be that Voyages provide +2 happiness in capital, and that is doubled from colonialism.

• Colonialism -> Honestly I would move the tribute % bonus to authority, and bring culture from tribute here (buffed obviously) This is what I'm least sure about. Save this suggestion for later.
• Civilizing Mission -> I would take a factory over a bunch of science most days, even with factories nerfed. New towns have a lot of trouble getting up and running. Factory is a big help. Taking production from this will really hurt the tree.

 

[tu_79]

I'd like to see the following in every industrial policy tree (quick and not well thought suggestion for Rationalism/Imperialism/Industrialism):

1. Military bonuses, so they all can wage war in their own way. (Aircraft / Naval / Mercenaries)
2. Boost to some worked specialists, so Artistry is good for any of them. (Extra scientist/engineers / less hungry specialists / extra great merchants)
3. Increased yields from some thematic terrain. (villages / Sea, coast / production improvements)
4. Something very thematic (golden ages / monopolies / trade routes)
5. Asociated buildings, so those get built faster (Productive buildings / Military buildings / Commerce buildings)
6. Something exclusive (Observatories / Vassals and puppets control / Unit purchasing)

 

[pineappledan]

I think making puppets not affect happiness at all, and grant only 25% science/culture/gold would be a perfect middle area. Then this policy could increase puppet yields by 15%, or add 1 happiness per puppet to your capital.

Not a terrible plan. They really would feel like hands-off, semi-autonomous puppets then.

I would make it 25% of normal unhappiness, instead of 0%. They would have so have SOME impact on unhappiness, or else they would just be way too good. increasing puppet // by 15% on colonialism sounds like my favorite plan so far.

I really think heal needs to provide yields. (Based on amount healed if possible.) It can be such an epic sweep that tales should be written, songs sung and books written on the glorious maneuvers. It just feels like a massive waste right now. Also it should heal to 2 tiles. (Maybe 50% on the second ring, but AI might have a harder time with that.

I am dead set against yields for heals. Human players could game that so easily. If fleet repair were to be buffed it would have to give a flat benefit, independent of the amount of damage on the units. I recommended that it could give XP to units it healed in addition, or it could increase supply by 4 instead of 2.
I do agree that increasing the number of luxuries given from voyage of discovery is not very useful for hard domination play, and only somewhat useful for other play. You now need 3 trading partners instead of 1 to get any benefit from this. I think giving 2 copies of 2 different luxuries would be a better idea. If you could get 3 trading partners, then this would be the same overall benefit, but it would be an easier time for warmongers.

I know you're moving the GG/GA bonuses to artisty but I do think there's something deeply ironic about how the only part of the whole tree I thought was very well designed and synergistic is slated to be removed.

It's also noteworthy that this would make Imperialism the only industrial tree without a % modifier to its respective GP. I don't think that necessarily bad though. I prefer the modifier being moved to artistry. Ideally, there would be a policy somewhere in the tree which provides some GA/GG generation though. Maybe GG/GA points as an instant yield?

Honestly, the more this conversation goes on, the more against moving antiquity sites I am. As @Stalker0 said, fixing Imperialism by breaking another tree isn't terribly efficient. I like the idea of Imperialism boosting archaeology in some way though. What about some alternatives:

• Archaeologists can enter rival territory without open borders and +50% improvement speed
• On completing an archaeological dig, immediately receive / bonus

 

[Gazebo]

I'd like to see the following in every industrial policy tree (quick and not well thought suggestion for Rationalism/Imperialism/Industrialism):

1. Military bonuses, so they all can wage war in their own way. (Aircraft / Naval / Mercenaries)
2. Boost to some worked specialists, so Artistry is good for any of them. (Extra scientist/engineers / less hungry specialists / extra great merchants)
3. Increased yields from some thematic terrain. (villages / Sea, coast / production improvements)
4. Something very thematic (golden ages / monopolies / trade routes)
5. Asociated buildings, so those get built faster (Productive buildings / Military buildings / Commerce buildings)
6. Something exclusive (Observatories / Vassals and puppets control / Unit purchasing)

We are not and do not need to do total overhauls. The other trees are perfectly fine.

G

 

[Gazebo]

I think making puppets not affect happiness at all, and grant only 25% science/culture/gold would be a perfect middle area. Then this policy could increase puppet yields by 15%, or add 1 happiness per puppet to your capital.


Given the nature of hidden antiquity sites I feel like most of the time the people going artistry would take 90% of them regardless.

As for the suggested changes: I don't think they adequately solve the issues the tree faces.

• Opener: I still don't like it. All units should get the +1 sight.
• Scaler: Good.
• Finisher: That really steps on Authority's toes, doesn't it? Also if the stuff on kills applies only to naval units feels very underwhelming.
• Martial Law: I've made my point on puppets above
• Exploitation -> This seems like a better place to put the yields. Cities with a lot of coast don't have as much farms, and visa-versa. The policy still feels weak because only ~1/2 it's bonuses work in any given city.
• Regimental System -> I know you're moving the GG/GA bonuses to artisty but I do think there's something deeply ironic about how the only part of the whole tree I thought was very well designed and synergistic is slated to be removed. More GGs into buffed citadels was a good idea, and the yields on stuff were good. Forts yields still suck though. Not sure what to do about them, if anything.
  • Also that Voyage of discovery buff is very lackluster. It's not too often I go warmongering and have enough good trade partners to make use of extra luxuries from voyage. Also heal is even worse with this.
  • I really think heal needs to provide yields. (Based on amount healed if possible.) It can be such an epic sweep that tales should be written, songs sung and books written on the glorious maneuvers. It just feels like a massive waste right now. Also it should heal to 2 tiles. (Maybe 50% on the second ring, but AI might have a harder time with that.
  • The Voyage buff should be that Voyages provide +2 happiness in capital, and that is doubled from colonialism.

• Colonialism -> Honestly I would move the tribute % bonus to authority, and bring culture from tribute here (buffed obviously) This is what I'm least sure about. Save this suggestion for later.
• Civilizing Mission -> I would take a factory over a bunch of science most days, even with factories nerfed. New towns have a lot of trouble getting up and running. Factory is a big help. Taking production from this will really hurt the tree.

I'm warming to the puppet idea. No, really. It's not bad.
Opener: not sure I understand?
Finisher: authority is to land as imperialism to sea. I don't sea (ha) an issue, honestly, as it is rare to have a game without some amount of naval combat
Martial Law: noted
Exploitation: It is a lot of instant, free yields. I'd say it is pretty potent.
Regimental - if I don't move GG/GA over, I think it'd be fair to give artistry 25/25 anyways to make the opener text whole. Forts do suck, but that's life.
VoD - the tree has combat elements to it, but it also has non-combat elements. I think that's fine.
Heal providing yields would benefit humans too much
Colonialism - authority doesn't need anything else. I'd be fine with tossing the tribute % bonus onto an ideology tenet.
Civilizing Mission - there are a few options for buildings, not sure which would work best.

 

[pineappledan]

Civilizing Mission - there are a few options for buildings, not sure which would work best.

Depends on what part of the white man's burden you want to play up I guess.

- Railroads is a pretty good one, since people who try to defend colonialism often point to the railroads that Europeans often built in their colonies so they could strip the savages of their wealth more efficiently.
- Hospitals would have been a good one if it wasn't already part of an ideology, since tropical medicine is another one of those cherished gifts from the White Masters. You could swap Hospitals for Medical lab for the freedom ideology if this was particularly appealing though.
- Another possibility is the white men bringing their laws with them. The old, "we saved your from your backwards monarchies and caste systems". This is what I was going for with my recommendation of free constabularies and +1 happiness for constabularies suggestion being moved back to civilizing mission. It's a nerf of sorts, which is why you would have to add the happiness at the same policy unlock. Police stations is too far away and courthouses are already in another ideology.

 

[ashendashin]

I'm warming to the puppet idea. No, really. It's not bad.

It'd make it an actually viable way to wait before annexing, that's for sure. They'd finally be able to build things up to standard.

Civilizing Mission - there are a few options for buildings, not sure which would work best.

Unless you go for a combination of buildings, I don't see it. Development for newly conquered and crippled cities is paramount at that stage, and there ain't much that's particularly rewarding on that front before atomic, seeing how train stations/seaports aren't viable.

 

[Ziad]

Civilizing Mission - there are a few options for buildings, not sure which would work best.

Maybe keep the factory but add a secondary effect?

Also are the Artistry Hidden Sites and the Imperialism Hidden Sites mutually exclusive? If not, wouldn't Artistry just nab them all before? Genuinely asking.

 

[Stalker0]

For civilizing mission, would it be too crazy to code something like: "Gain 100% production for the first 20 turns after conquering a city". Or can we give that city a big load of hammers, like 500 or something?

So in effect its dealers choice. People can build whatever buildings they want with the extra hammers.

Another option is to throw in the Rome-esque benefit. You destroy few buildings on conquest...so you don't have to build the buildings back up.

 

[Stalker0]

Thought I'd take a crack at my own version of the tree. I'll write everything out in full.

Quick Summary:
1) A buff to the unit production, and starting xp.
2) More regimental system earlier in the tree gets the economic bonuses of Imperalism working quicker.
3) Make puppets more productive and less of a burden.
4) Allows GGs/GAs to help fight war weariness through extra supply, and defacto increases both of the GAs option for expenditure.
5) Make the monopoly bonus fairer depending on the type of bonuses you have.

Opener: +1 movement to naval, embarked units, and great generals. +1 sight to naval units. +10% production when producing units.
Scaler: +5% unit production and +3 starting XP.
Martial Law: Switched in position with regimental system. Constabularies provide +1 happiness. Puppet needs decrease by 25%, and gain +10% to all yields.
Colonialism: -25% unit upgrade cost. Bonuses from monopolies are tripled (percentage bonuses are doubled).
Exploitation: Farms and Plantations gain +1 F/ + 1 P. Ocean, Lake, and Coast tiles gain +1 S / +1 P.
Regimental System: Switch in position with martial law. +5 S / +2 for Barracks, Armories, Military Academies, Forts, and Citadels. +2 supply when expending a Great Admiral or Great General.
Civilizing Mission: No gold for garrisons. When you conquer a city for the first time, or settle a new city, the city gains a free factory, and a large amount of production and gold.
Closer: Pentagon. All air units gain the range promotion, and all sea units the ironsides and pilum promotion. Buy Great Admirals with Faith

 

[Rekk]

If you remove the hidden sites from artistry completely...I think artistry will need a big boost. You have taken out one of the key reasons to go that tree.

If the key reason to go Artistry is hidden sites, then the tree seems pretty back-loaded, doesn't it?

 

[tu_79]

We are not and do not need to do total overhauls. The other trees are perfectly fine.

G

But 80% of what you see are current policies. It's not a complete overhaul, just touching a policy or two in the other industrial policy trees.

EDIT. I'll highlight the changes:
1. Military bonuses, so they all can wage war in their own way. (Aircraft / Naval / Mercenaries)
2. Boost to some worked specialists, so Artistry is good for any of them. (Extra scientist/engineers / less hungry specialists / extra great merchants)
3. Increased yields from some thematic terrain. (villages / Sea, coast / production improvements)
4. Something very thematic (golden ages / monopolies / trade routes)
5. Asociated buildings, so those get built faster (Productive buildings / Military buildings / Commerce buildings)
6. Something exclusive (Observatories / Vassals and puppets control / Unit purchasing)

Changes (remember, this is a brainstorming).
* Aircraft bonus is moved from Industrialism to Rationalism. As ElliotS pointed out, extra aircraft range for a expansionist civ is nothing, you can as well conquer a nearby city. Rationalism main use at fighting is getting to better units faster, but if you are playing for science, you are probably focusing on Public Schools and Research Labs, so you are going to arrive always late for the military units.
* Mercenaries to Industrialism. This could be anything that allowed better units by purchasing, be it Landsknetchs, be it removing XP penalty for purchases. Industrialism has more gold and can maintain a bigger army, but does not really have anything to help fighting.
* Food discount to specialists moved from Rationalism to Imperialism. Rationalism is a huge attractor for Artistry, and this policy is the main culprit. We are assuming that a Rationalist player is not going to expand, as the unhappiness would destroy the science bonus, and I'm fine with it. But we are also assuming that an Imperialist player is going hard on domination, always struggling with happiness. This does not need to be true. A player could simply benefit from having expanded hard in the past, or expanded through a puppet empire (slower but happier). Since an expansionist player that wishes to consolidate or is content with a puppet empire is able to work on specialists, why is not there any benefit to specialists?
* Bonus to productive buildings moved from Industrialism to Rationalism. If Rationalism loses the food bonus to specialists, then it can be replaced by a bonus for having production buildings. The only thing that Rationalism currently misses is a bonus in some buildings. Rationalism is the tree for scientist and engineers, isn't it?

That's it. Four changes. Not a complete overhaul.

 

[ElliotS]

That's it. Four changes. Not a complete overhaul.

That's hopelessly naive. Touching the other branches in one way means other parts of their kits need to be nerfed.

I'm warming to the puppet idea. No, really. It's not bad.
Opener: not sure I understand?
Finisher: authority is to land as imperialism to sea. I don't sea (ha) an issue, honestly, as it is rare to have a game without some amount of naval combat
Martial Law: noted
Exploitation: It is a lot of instant, free yields. I'd say it is pretty potent.
Regimental - if I don't move GG/GA over, I think it'd be fair to give artistry 25/25 anyways to make the opener text whole. Forts do suck, but that's life.
VoD - the tree has combat elements to it, but it also has non-combat elements. I think that's fine.
Heal providing yields would benefit humans too much
Colonialism - authority doesn't need anything else. I'd be fine with tossing the tribute % bonus onto an ideology tenet.
Civilizing Mission - there are a few options for buildings, not sure which would work best.

I'm glad you like the puppet idea. I think balancing by opportunity cost is a great way to push players in the right direction in a fun way. It's much better for learning players too, because choosing puppets foolishly now can ruin your game, but choosing a bunch of puppets after the change leaves yields on the table without crippling you.

It leads to two interesting paths towards annexing. If you annex directly you can invest in whatever is needed and get it up to snuff quicker. If you puppet you can allow it to develop and build the required buildings on it's own, then annex it when those are complete. This is slower and offers less yields along the way, but less resource intensive.

Opener: Currently "+1 move and sight to naval and embarked units" I would see it changed to "+1 sight to combat units, +1 movement to naval and embarked units."
Finisher: Aside from the fact that this makes Imperialism worth way more or less depending on the map (land bonuses could mitigate the effect) I feel like there is an issue here. How are you supposed to beat industry or rationalism on land? You need to win land fights to take cities, and industry gives you more units while rationalism gives you a tech lead. If they took authority too then I think it can be really hard to beat them in a war if both of you're doing well. Especially if their core cities are inland.
VoD- I think 2 copies of 2 luxuries would be much better.
Heal should grant a random great work. This should be added to the base ability. It would make transitioning to a culture game from war more possible, and be really good. If that's too hard lump culture would be a good idea. (Not based on healing.)

 

[Stalker0]

You need to win land fights to take cities, and industry gives you more units while rationalism gives you a tech lead.

Well imperialism should also give you more units by the production bonuses to units. If that’s the key issue than that bonus can be buffed

 

[ElliotS]

Well imperialism should also give you more units by the production bonuses to units. If that’s the key issue than that bonus can be buffed

I mean Industry feels like it just outproduces Imperialism. We'd need to make the bonus ridiculous to have a real advantage there/ Imperialism needs quality over industry's quantity.

 

[Stalker0]

I mean Industry feels like it just outproduces Imperialism. We'd need to make the bonus ridiculous to have a real advantage there/ Imperialism needs quality over industry's quantity.

I agree with you thst industry out produces. But how much? Produced units at this point in the game get a promotion over bought units...so they already are better quality. How much unit production do we think would fix the gap?

I push this point because unit production is already baked into the tree. It’s a very simple matter to bump that up to be more competitive with industry