Tunisia-like riots breaking out in Egypt

Hmmm. Given what has transpired, I really think the military should be concentrating on other things right now besides harassing people hanging out in Tahrir Square.

It reminds me of early policing efforts in Baghdad after the US occupied their country. The local cops were beating anybody they thought might be a criminal because that is how they did it in the past.
 
Hmmm. Given what has transpired, I really think the military should be concentrating on other things right now besides harassing people hanging out in Tahrir Square.

It reminds me of early policing efforts in Baghdad after the US occupied their country. The local cops were beating anybody they thought might be a criminal because that is how they did it in the past.
Sounds like Western Sydney.
 
Lessee... Mubarak left on Friday, handing the reins to the military. On Sunday the military authorities presented a list which ticked off pretty much all the demands of the protesters. It's short on detail about how and exactly when the promised elections will be held inside the 6 month time limit set.

Might it be a mistake to trust the military? Perhaps. Everyone will see. Afaict what the military police seem to have been doing clearing the square is try to get traffic going like regular. With the exception of a small group of extra concerned protesters, or those particularly distrustful of the military. Besides that, Egyptians seem pretty damn content with what they just did, and for now willing to give the military the benefit of the doubt. The general sentiment seems to be to have things back to normal. (And the tourists return.)

If this revolution is going to be subverted by the military, it is probably not this, now. That might occur somewhere down the line. To avoid it, what's needed now doesn't seem to be people sticking about in Tahrir Square, but people starting to organize themselves, working out what policies they want by September. Lack of that also increases the risk of the military just sticking around running the place. If needs be by then, people can also head back to the square, now that they know where it is, figuratively speaking.
 
They do, actually; Arab Palestinians choose to not become citizens, even though they are legally allowed to.

No they are not. The only Palestinians that have the right and are actually Israeli citizen are those who stayed in Israel (ie inside the green line) after 1948 war and weren't expelled. They represent about 20% of Israel population today and are full Israeli citizen. They are being discrimated against, some Israeli politians, like the Secretary of State Lieberman, are even asking for their "transfer".
Palestinian who live in the WB and Gaza do not have the right the become Istraeli. The big problem of the Israeli Government is that they want the West Bank without the people living on it.
 
Besides that, Egyptians seem pretty damn content with what they just did, and for now willing to give the military the benefit of the doubt.
As if they had any choice in the matter.

If your country had been ruled by a repressive authoritarian dictatorship for over 50 years and you suddenly found that the "president" had fled due to a massive popular uprising, do you think it would be expected for the military to be beating citizens with sticks in the very place where this miracle occurred a few days before? That they were ostensibly doing so on the basis that they wanted to allow traffic to pass through a park unimpeded in an area with lots of other alternatives? That they were promoting tourism when the biggest tourist attraction in Egypt at present is likely this very park and the people who still congregate there?

I really think the military should think twice before lapsing into their old authoritarian behavior. After all, the entire point of this uprising was ostensibly to stop just this sort of thing from ever occurring again. There is no need for such stringently enforced "law and order" in an area which is apparently quite peaceful.
 
As if they had any choice in the matter.

If your country had been ruled by a repressive authoritarian dictatorship for over 50 years and you suddenly found that the "president" had fled due to a massive popular uprising, do you think it would be expected for the military to be beating citizens with sticks in the very place where this miracle occurred a few days before? That they were ostensibly doing so on the basis that they wanted to allow traffic to pass through a park unimpeded in an area with lots of other alternatives? That they were promoting tourism when the biggest tourist attraction in Egypt at present is likely this very park and the people who still congregate there?

I really think the military should think twice before lapsing into their old authoritarian behavior. After all, the entire point of this uprising was ostensibly to stop just this sort of thing from ever occurring again. There is no need for such stringently enforced "law and order" in an area which is apparently quite peaceful.
Well, one needs to see Cairo traffic I guess. The square is a major hub. Right now clearing the square isn't an impopular move from what I can see (based on the news I follow at least). The army seems to be judging the mood of the majority correctly. It's whether it will continue to do so which is uncertain.

But sure, it's not as if the Egyptians have much choice but to trust the army right now. It is however a conscript army, was not part of the police-state structure, enjoys a considerable goodwill right now. You can also turn the phrasing around, and ask how much choice in the matter the army actually has? And that would be the top brass like CiC Tantawi, who was implicated as hell in the Mubarak regime, so I can of course see where you're coming from here.

The people needs the army, the army needs the people, and right now in some measure the army is the people (one of the weird but occasionally wonderful aspects of conscription; there's more to one than whether it fights as good as a professional army after all). And if it turns not it's not, that comes with quite a hefty price tag for everyone to pay, the generals included.
 
I don't know if it being a conscript army has much to do with it. First of all, not all Egyptian males are called up for military service. Secondly, most authoritarian states maintain conscript armies. Third, the way officers treat the conscripted soldiers is typically bad from what I've heard. Being a career soldier compared to serving one or 2 years of forced military service is pretty different, it doesn't mean the people necessarily see themselves as part of the military or the military as part of them.

Anyway, does that mean the people don't care for the army sorting out the mess there? Probably not, I'm just saying it being a conscript army probably doesn't have a lot to do with it.
 
There is noone but the military who can sort out anything over there. Best case scenario now is a flawed democracy backed by the military, like Turkey.
 
I don't know if it being a conscript army has much to do with it. First of all, not all Egyptian males are called up for military service. Secondly, most authoritarian states maintain conscript armies. Third, the way officers treat the conscripted soldiers is typically bad from what I've heard. Being a career soldier compared to serving one or 2 years of forced military service is pretty different, it doesn't mean the people necessarily see themselves as part of the military or the military as part of them.
Well, that's the thing- the Egyptians may not see the military as an institution as being very much "of the people", but they see the bulk of its membership as being such. Soldiers are still seen as being essentially working class, rather than as some removed, faceless element of state machinery- which is precisely how the police are perceived- and so people trust them not to put a slavish obedience to the state or the military heirarchy over their duties to the nation. Whether or not this trust is well-placed, of course, is something we'll have to see.
 
Well, one needs to see Cairo traffic I guess. The square is a major hub. Right now clearing the square isn't an impopular move from what I can see (based on the news I follow at least). The army seems to be judging the mood of the majority correctly. It's whether it will continue to do so which is uncertain.
From the photos I've seen, the mobs of people celebrating are still very much disrupting the traffic. The tents which were not located in the street were not impeding the traffic in the least.

If Mubarak had done this, most people would be up in arms.

...was not part of the police-state structure.
That is patently false. The military was the spearhead of Mubarkak's reign of terror against the people of Egypt.

Thousands of protestors were reported as being "disappeared" by the military during the past few weeks, and they apparently still haven't reappeared.
 
I wouldn't doubt that, even if men are forced into it those controlling it are part of the state. In Turkey Kurdish men are forced into the army even though the army has done much to oppress them.
 
From the photos I've seen, the mobs of people celebrating are still very much disrupting the traffic. The tents which were not located in the street were not impeding the traffic in the least.

If Mubarak had done this, most people would be up in arms.
Of course. This is also about appearences. The interesting thing is that nothing has gelled yet, because it's a new situation. We can't really tell what things mean yet. We, typing away far from Egypt, can't second-guess things, and apparently neither can the Egyptians. It's one of these grace-periods when a number of developments are possible. The Egyptians are apparently treating the army as being about what they hope it will be about. Since they can't fight it and defeat it, that might be the best way of dealing with it. The army is put under a national moral obligation to live up to the trust put in it. Is that sufficient to have it come off as hoped? Absolutely not by any necessity. But it is a form of leverage, and it's not trivial.
That is patently false. The military was the spearhead of Mubarkak's reign of terror against the people of Egypt.

Thousands of protestors were reported as being "disappeared" by the military during the past few weeks, and they apparently still haven't reappeared.
Yeah, well, I should have expressed that in been more guarded fashion apparently. But it certainly seems to be how the majority of Egyptians right now chose to see things.
 
This is also about appearences.
Exactly. The military want to continue the appearance that they will crack open the skulls of anybody who doesn't immediately do as they demand. I think that is a terrible sign of what might easily happen. There are obviously heavy-handed types who are still in positions of authority and power. I don't think anything has actually changed within their organization since the Mubarak ceded power.

But at least they are easily spotted and their activities are quite public. I'm really more worried about the huge state security / secret police apparatus. What the heck are they up to these days?

The Egyptians are apparently treating the army as being about what they hope it will be about.

Yeah, well, I should have expressed that in been more guarded fashion apparently. But it certainly seems to be how the majority of Egyptians right now chose to see things.
What choice do they have? The public has to pretend that the military poses no threat and will continue to be "peaceful" fpr the next 6 months or so. They can only hope they are right.
 
I'm also kind of skeptical that the next government will be better, or maybe it will have too much of an Islamic flavor.

When I was in Azerbaijan and I described to an Egyptian friend of mine the way the police were in Azerbaijan - they pay a lot of money to get a job as a police officer and then supplement their salary by stopping people and asking for bribes - he said " you're in Egypt." If they can at least get rid of rampant corruption that would be some improvement.
 
What choice do they have? The public has to pretend that the military poses no threat and will continue to be "peaceful" fpr the next 6 months or so. They can only hope they are right.
And they might be. Regardless, right now dealing with the military in good faith does constitute a preassure on them to live up to it. Egyptians haven't been permitted to gather publicly more than three-and-three for 30 years. It's not like their civilian society is all in place. There's a lot yet to be seen here.
 
When I was in Azerbaijan and I described to an Egyptian friend of mine the way the police were in Azerbaijan - they pay a lot of money to get a job as a police officer and then supplement their salary by stopping people and asking for bribes - he said " you're in Egypt." If they can at least get rid of rampant corruption that would be some improvement.
Sounds like Russia, and a lot of other places as well.
 
Oooo, in Iran now? Let's hope the protests actually amount to something here. Possible if they get leadership(wasn't that their main flaw last time?).

Obama won't give his support though since he's so hellbent on working with the regime.

I mean, I understand the gov't there construes even 'we support democracy" as "OMFG AMERICAN IMPERIALISM SUPPORT US NOW! D8" but... I'm sure Iran, which I've been told is one of the most educated and most prosperous, doesn't fall for such bullcrap propaganda.
 
Oooo, in Iran now? Let's hope the protests actually amount to something here. Possible if they get leadership(wasn't that their main flaw last time?).

Obama won't give his support though since he's so hellbent on working with the regime.

I mean, I understand the gov't there construes even 'we support democracy" as "OMFG AMERICAN IMPERIALISM SUPPORT US NOW! D8" but... I'm sure Iran, which I've been told is one of the most educated and most prosperous, doesn't fall for such bullcrap propaganda.

actually he did gave us his support
http://abcnews.go.com/US/secretary-...blican-budget-cuts-endanger/story?id=12913691
srry for my bad english
and btw iran flaw wasnt leadership it was and it is oil wich is our strongest economy factor(90% of gdp) and its under goverment control
 
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