Turkey and France

Not really. You seem to have missed the fact that the mere mention of the Armenian genocide is forbidden by Turkish law - as mentioned earlier by Graffito.

This compares very unfavourably with, say, the German consitution, which forbids anything associated with national-socialism.(Not to mention that to this day people can be prosecuted in Germany for having committed, or taken part in, genocide.)

The problems facing Turkey are bigger than the failure to acknowledge past war crimes. For instance, although some steps have been taken to curtail the military, they are still officially the guardian of the constitution.

bolding mine... so my point was clear to you... it is not about Islamic countries ;)

As a side note it was the USA press that brought the Armenian genocide to the worlds attention and a US president was the first to condemn it... so there is something to be said for free speech and free expression

Yes, I usually have little trouble with someone´s point... although you seem to have missed mine, which was about constitutions, not free speech.
 
Yes, I usually have little trouble with someone´s point... although you seem to have missed mine, which was about constitutions, not free speech.

my bad ... yes i got your point, about constitutions, a very good point too:) i just skipped ahead of myself to how constitutions form the basis of democratic governments thus affect how Governments react to free speech and free expression ;)

but i think we were both in agreement in that it was not a religious matter tho:D

really its quite parochial... to the countries involved, the USA, Australia, CFCOT all can discuss the matters despite restrictions on free speech imposed by Authoritative Governments

a lot of views expressed on CFCOT would fall prey of these laws
 
There were laws discriminating against Christians for centuries, an imbalances in the judicial system favouring Muslims, the general attitude and crimes/rapes/robbery/murder carried out against Armenians for years leading up to the events.

Then there was the liberation of Christians in the balkans which stirred hatred towards the Armenians. To claim there was no religious dimension to this, when the whole thing was permeated from start to finish with religious sentiment and discrimination, is just surreal.
Observing that religion influences the development of nationality does not imply that national conflicts can be reduced to any such religious dimension. That's like claiming that the Serb-Croat conflict is merely one between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, that the Irish War of Independence was about Catholicism and Protestantism, or, hell, that the American Revolution was a clash of Anglicanism and Nonconformism (an opinion held by more than a few at the time, he disparagingly refferred to the event as the "Presbyterian rebellion"). It's an absurdly one-dimensional view of history.
 
People can actually discuss the events around the Armenian Genocide in Turkey but calling it a genocide is risky. It's actually discussed a lot in Turkey but from a Turkish point of view and arguing against that point of view is risky.
 
I'll just like to note three things.

1. The irony of how France is trying to get Turkey to admit to the Armenian Genocide by forcing it down people much like how Turkey is trying to refute it by forcing it down people.

2. The Turks are being overly sensitive to this. Call in the French Ambassador, give him a piece of your mine and point out the contradictions in French Colonial Policy and call it a day.

3. The historic irony in which the French initially backed and armed the Armenians during the Cilicia War before striking a deal with the Ankara Nationalists and abandoning the Armenians.
 
what did ı learn on the weekend ? Not much .

it appears article 11or 13 of the Armenian Constitution calls for the liberation of the Western Armenia which happens to be about one third of my country . Whatever . Now that there are always two sides to an equation , let them come and take it . If we stand firm what can they do ?

if we can stand firm . ı hear in 1910 or '12 the city of Yerevan was 65% Turkish . Anyhow , was zapping around when ı found this discussion on a channel that likes the new Turkey very much .Guy A was the host , Guy B the head of an Atatürk and Revolutionary history department of an university . Guy A was getting kinda angry with his guest , a commercial break saw it to that the attempt to explain how the Throne failed during the invasion of 1920-22 went down the drain ; Ottoman can no wrong do . Abdülhamid's honour as likewise protected , by his grandeur at playing the Great Powers against each other anytime his apparent lack of spine at punishing the Armenian anarchists and plain seperatists came up . Getting interesting as the new Turkey is quite perceptibly returning the ways of the old , Israelis are even hinting that soon they will "relocate their air forces to bases in this country to strike Iran " and for a while the Guy B appeared to be a vanguard . In this beautiful country o'mine , you no longer speak good about Kemal and what came after him unless you have something to depend on . In my case ı have commanded a Constipation and can only smile at the befuddled economy correspondents at the news channels who can't explain the miracles we are achieving every month by the standart theories they learned at school and on the job . Saying the economic crisis in this country is deferred by easy credits so that we can be a beacon for the revolting in their bloody Spring people is something that will get any sane person into deep trouble .

anyhow the Guy A audiably grunted and it seriously appeared that he would reach across the table and punch the Guy B for the mention of Guy C who brought home some Russian archives that prove the Armenians were in collusion with Moscow to rebel against Istanbul . Guy C has his father in jail under trial as a coup plotting , militarist , agent provocateur and terrorist party leader who happens to be , between you and me , a British intelligence asset . Enemies of the new Turkey are most unwelcome to do anything for a "noble" cause . And their utility seems to be decreasing , there were news that a counter-revolutionary army was being assembled in the Belarus , their financier appeared on a talk show to stress he was protected by Merkel's Germany and that was all to it .

deutschland is über alles here in Turkey . Still no discussion of how Germans had the Orthodox removed so that they could steal the Catholic / Protestant Armenians from their collegues and competitors in arms , the American missionaries - who filled every mission with hundreds of brand new rifles . Just like the British Balfour Declaration had to be rushed because Berlin was on the verge of giving away a Jewish homeland in the middle of the Great War . Won't Daddy Sarkozy mention this too , now that he sez he respects Turkey and expects respect in return ? Non ? Ja , Deutschland ist filthy rich . Doesn't save the richer Uncle Sam from merciless criticism though now that the conquerors of Van in May 1915 are reported to have sent a telegramm to President Wilson that they had driven "Muslims" from the city , to the extent of only 3 000 remained from 70 000 people in addition to "cats , birds and roosters" . Works perfectly for the new strategic vision . People in the east of my country are no longer considered capable of respecting the state as individuals , meaning Islamic roots to be stressed so that together we will be the mass the wayward people of the Middle East will graviate to . We will together rise another Ottoman Empire . Jawohl , entire lines and ranks of people are about to shout .

hence the "new" line . The seperatists are once again Armenians . Indeed . Armed Forces was bad , nationalist and racist , and kinda atheist and it knew nothing but fight . Those seperatists in the mountains had their mothers and killing them solved nothing . This last week about 50 were killed for minimal Army casualties . Kinda leads to think why this wasn't happening in October , when the heavy losses were always followed by commentary on how Syria was supporting the seperatists . Our invasion got stuck in limbo , seperatists got some paychecks from Damascus and voila . Mothers are still there and not important anymore . See , those who die are no longer worthy of consideration in an era when my country makes secular Syrian rebels to fall in line with the Muslim Brotherhood .

not that we would ever care for a secular rebellion now that Sarkozy boasted publicly about the grenade in his hand with the pin removed while travelling to Erivan in October . Had we followed the timetable , nobody would have ever heard the vote . Due to the mess we have found ourselves in , with this occupation . Our future masters when this country becomes a province of the Gulf oil empire , devastated and burned out , and -unbeknownst to those assigning fiefs to themselves in the sunny south of the new , yet to be , Ottoman Empire - cleansed of "leadership" , yes the guys who rule their states with absolute American support are getting the creeps ; the Saudi King reportedly gave a rare speech saying that they are targeted . By Iran , naturally . Stop drawing lines on the maps for us , what makes you think we will be obligated to stop at Halep ?

ahh , those slimeballs in the Pentagon , it is now 40 years this country was threatened with carpet bombing if the leading marketshare in the legal global opium production (as the basic source for painkillers) was not turned over . It is kinda annoying , where are the B-52s ? Maybe we should go to them . Yep , Americans with their hiccups are giving the glorious future of the Middle East some shivers ...

though for real life it is not some kind of great surprise and the vanguard Guy B turns out to be more of the same , and the whole show proves to be some sort of scripted play : 2 million Armenians are reported to live under Turkish names and false religious screens claiming to be Alevis , concentrated - by coincidence - at the birth place of the main opposition leader . (Of a party that is merely a sorry excuse for a political organization ) Guy A shows the veins in his forehead by cursing the fact that in 1911 the Ottoman Foreign Minister was an Armenian , downplaying Abdülhamid also had one . Which is followed by this state's failure to convince people that we are right and the claims for an Armenian Genocide are not . We must use history , those the guys A to B tell us and foreigners will understand .

me , being in line for the Starfleet Command , somehow doubt it . The letter from Kanuni to François I was in the news ; he counting the 50 or 60 countries he ruled as the Suleiman the Magnificient to be followed by "you Fransuva the king of the province called France " . That letter was in the curricula when ı was a high school student , the notion that France got into that messy war with Spain only because the previous French King claimed he needed to occupy Naples as a base for the Crusade he would mount later was not . About in time for the centennary of Nikopolis 1396 . The French rightly say there is nothing new under the sun .

as it is the SOP with anything ı say there will no sources .

indeed it is no surprise nobody ever listens to real-life Turkish theses because real-life people with history doctorates and department heads in univercities still say on public TV that we were the last to sign a ceasefire in the WW1 and that war ended on Oct. 30 , 1918 . If you ever come across a guy mentioning Nov. 11 , be informed he is a paid German propaganda tool .
 
People can actually discuss the events around the Armenian Genocide in Turkey but calling it a genocide is risky. It's actually discussed a lot in Turkey but from a Turkish point of view and arguing against that point of view is risky.

I agree with you about risky....
don't quite think we are on the same page with discuss tho...

Spoiler :
OSCE representative for media freedom Dunja Mijatović met earlier this month with government officials.

"There are more people put in prison. Very long detention period - more than 1,000 days, sentences of 166 years in prison. So that in the end, we had to intervene," said Mijatović. "Of course, this issue of imprisonment, it cannot be treated as a technical issue because we are talking about people behind bars, about human beings. My office clearly spelled out to the government we do not [want] in anyway to interfere [with] the legitimate right of any government to fight terrorism. But this case of 66, at the moment, people that are journalists that are in prison in Turkey needs very urgent remedies."

Mijatović says she received commitments from the government to reform, but was not given a timetable for change. The OSCE concern follows that of the European Union, which Turkey is seeking to join. The EU annual report on Turkey, published in October, criticized Ankara about freedom of the press.
 
There's uh...actually quite a bit of discussion whether or not what the Ottomans committed in Armenia was genocide.
Regardless of your thoughts on Turkey, this amounts to no less then a stifling of academic freedom in France.
 
I agree with you about risky....
don't quite think we are on the same page with discuss tho...

Spoiler :
OSCE representative for media freedom Dunja Mijatović met earlier this month with government officials.

"There are more people put in prison. Very long detention period - more than 1,000 days, sentences of 166 years in prison. So that in the end, we had to intervene," said Mijatović. "Of course, this issue of imprisonment, it cannot be treated as a technical issue because we are talking about people behind bars, about human beings. My office clearly spelled out to the government we do not [want] in anyway to interfere [with] the legitimate right of any government to fight terrorism. But this case of 66, at the moment, people that are journalists that are in prison in Turkey needs very urgent remedies."

Mijatović says she received commitments from the government to reform, but was not given a timetable for change. The OSCE concern follows that of the European Union, which Turkey is seeking to join. The EU annual report on Turkey, published in October, criticized Ankara about freedom of the press.

There's a lot of discussion about the Armenian Genocide in Turkey and there's a whole genre of books related to it. The problem is when people say something that's contradictory to what the nationalists want to hear on the issue and Turkey is a very nationalist country. The part you quoted above, I don't know how much of that has to do with the Armenian issue. It may have more to do with the Kurdish issue since it mentioned terrorism.
 
There's a lot of discussion about the Armenian Genocide in Turkey and there's a whole genre of books related to it. The problem is when people say something that's contradictory to what the nationalists want to hear on the issue and Turkey is a very nationalist country. The part you quoted above, I don't know how much of that has to do with the Armenian issue. It may have more to do with the Kurdish issue since it mentioned terrorism.

good point... :)
bolding mine.... still don't think we are on the same page with discussion tho

only 2 of the 6 journalists mentioned, are specifically in trouble over the Armenian issue ... so i suppose there could be discussion in turkey... I just wonder if it could be meaningfully under those conditions ... but woe betide anyone who was to compare the Armenian and Kurdish situations ... when one journalist is already sentenced to 160 years jail...
 
The problem is when people say something that's contradictory to what the nationalists want to hear on the issue and Turkey is a very nationalist country.

had this period when ı was marked as a nationalist of some sorts . In honour of those days let me say the nationalists rarely amount to much . Our single Nobel winner , who had to declare a million Armenian and 30 000 Kurdish victims to get into that hall where he was presented the award might have made them famous or the journalists who always say nice things about Democracy and all the bright stuff do rail against them a lot . But actions that actually hurt people are when , you know , there is someplace we are supposed to be led to . We are not stocking firewood to burn heretics and the like .

the primary issue is timing . There are so many friends of the West in this country and they are ready to accept anything demanded of them ; and there is a liitle glitch that keeps the West from applying the verdict . Nobody should be surprised when the verdict is applied , there will be a huge acceptance of things we didn't do .
 
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