Turns 1-20

U will not go for sling???

Lets wait a few turns, if we know what civilizations the other Teams play and what they research.
 
U will not go for sling???

Lets wait a few turns, if we know what civilizations the other Teams play and what they research.
Maximum we will know from F11 is their rate.
To know what they research we need a contact
 
@ Memento: I do not believe anyone expects we could do a Republic-slingshot. I think we should go to Writing and then see whether we try to reach Philo first in order to get a free tech.

But we should not go crazy about that free tech. As Lanzelot says correctly, not starting with the Alpha/Pot-combi it is already quite hard to compete in the science race. That is, if anyone has chosen this trait combination... which maybe we will see or maybe not soon.

templar_x
 
We will need Pottery for growth, so definitely need that researched as soon as possible. I think we should include at least one curragh in our build order, it may be the fastest contact possibility, giving us a chance to trade for warrior code or bronze working.

Edit: Pottery plus writing may take no more time than writing alone, since we'll be working more tiles by the time we start writing.
 
Ok, I did another test tonight. I think the procedure in Ivan's "w_w_ granary-settler variant.txt" is already pretty close to perfect. Except for two "errors":
  • On turn 17 we cannot yet use the ivory, it'll be ready one turn later. However, we can use the roaded grass for 2/0/2, and the missing shield does not matter: granary will finish anyway.
  • I can't see how you get Writing at 27?! In my test I got it at turn 28. :confused:

Using this procedure I get Philo at turn 38 (2230 BC).

I believe by changing the order from w-w-granary-settler to w-granary-settler-w, we can squeeze out another turn and get Philo at 37. Perhaps someone can test it? Need to go to bed now... (When testing, please keep in mind the extra commerce that can be gained due to the fact that in MP the roads finish 1 turn earlier. Use "Hotseat" for testing.)

@Overseer: Pottery takes us 8 turns. The granary will compensate for some of these turns, but I don't think in the short course of Writing - Philosophy it will already completely pay off. Perhaps 4 turns? So I guess by doing Writing directly, we can reach Philosophy at turn 33-34?! (If someone is bored, he can perhaps make a test run for this as well, but I think everyone likes the Pottery first plan better?!)

And yes, we definitely can't expect the full slingshot to work. By the time we finish CoL, the rest of the world will already have finished Philo... ;)

Best Regards, Lanzelot
 
Put new w_w_ granary-settler variant.txt file, some mistakes checked, but not all.

Granary vs warriors gain nothing.

2 wariants 1) go to BG first, 2) Settler first.

I can't see how you get Writing at 27?! In my test I got it at turn 28
.
Even at 29, if we count the turn when it appear.

4000*"BC" 0 size s research sum sum
3950*"BC" 1 1 2 6 0 0
3900*"BC" 2 1 2 6 6 2
3850*"BC" 3 1 2 5 12 4
3800*"BC" 4 1 2 5 17 6
3750*"BC" 5 1 2 6 22 8
3700*"BC" 6 1 4 6 28 10
3650*"BC" 7 2 3 8 34 14
3600*"BC" 8 2 3 8 42 17
3550*"BC" 9 2 3 8 50 20
3500*"BC" 10 2 3 8 58 23
3450*"BC" 11 2 5 8 66 26
3400*"BC" 12 3 4 9 74 31
3350*"BC" 13 3 4 9 83 35
3300*"BC" 14 3 4 9 92 39
3250*"BC" 15 3 4 9 101 43
3200*"BC" 16 3 6 9 110 47
3150*"BC" 17 4 5 9 119 53
3100*"BC" 18 4 5 10 128 58
3050*"BC" 19 4 5 11 138 63
3000*"BC" 20 4 5 11 149 68
2950*"BC" 21 4 7 12 160 73
2900*"BC" 22 5 5 12 172 80
2850*"BC" 23 5 6 12 184 85
2800*"BC" 24 5 6 12 196 91
2750*"BC" 25 6 8 13 208 97
2700*"BC" 26 4 8 13 221 105
2650*"BC" 27 4 7 13 234 113
 
I think we should include at least one curragh in our build order, it may be the fastest contact possibility, giving us a chance to trade for warrior code or bronze working.

That's true. However, it's difficult to squeeze a curragh into the build order of the capital. With two warriors, a granary and a settler it already has enough on its plate... And later we urgently need a second worker and then it can smoothly operate as a 6-turn warrior/settler combo.
In my test I built the curragh in the second town at turn 36. This is still quite early and does not compromise our fast development. What do the others think?
 
In the new w-w-granary-settler ss (with forest cut) the forest chop does not do any good. It would finish the granary 1 turn earlier with nothing won but 1 turn of upkeep.

that´s why i chose to ROAD that forest in my sequence. it is 1 turn faster (4t instead of 5t) for that tile and allows to proceed to the ivory faster. but maybe we should skip working the forest completely?*

skipping the 2nd warrior and chopping gains us nearly nothing, either, because it does not matter whether we finish the gran on turn 19 instead of 21 with only 2 turns into the box. it then only costs 2gp for upkeep. at least here we could finish a warrior in between (or set the cap to wealth :crazyeye:)

other points:
+ in the latest ss, the warriors were put down one turn after they are built. (like, in the first turn where they have an effect.) the gran and settler, however are put down where they are built.
whatever way we want to write it, it should be coherent. the way it is now seems confusing.
+ as Lanzelot says, writing does not finish. it exactly finished with 200 beakers in my sequence (the one where i roaded the forest). but then again, we have to double check commerce in both sequences.
finishing writing 1 turn earlier does not necessarily be any better. only if we can muster the money and beakers to go on researching the next tech full speed.

* skipping to work the forest altogether, and simply moving on to the plains 1e of the capital, road, move to ivory, i+r, gives the ivory tile a few tiles earlier and does all the difference for Writing on t27: we can work it from t13 on and get the happy face from t15 on! it wastes one worker turn though.
i think we should either road the forest (for later faster movement south of the river) or skip working the forest altogether. if we choose the 2nd, we could use the chop from t27 on for something we then might want, eg a curragh.

templar_x
 
In the new w-w-granary-settler ss (with forest cut) the forest chop does not do any good. It would finish the granary 1 turn earlier with nothing won but 1 turn of upkeep.

that´s why i chose to ROAD that forest in my sequence. it is 1 turn faster (4t instead of 5t) for that tile and allows to proceed to the ivory faster. but maybe we should skip working the forest completely?*
May be I miscalculate something? But my lines show
2950*"BC" 21 4 7 12 160 73
2900*"BC" 22 5 5 12 172 80

That mean that without chop Granry will appear at 2900 BC, when size = 5.
 
In the new w-w-granary-settler ss (with forest cut) the forest chop does not do any good. It would finish the granary 1 turn earlier with nothing won but 1 turn of upkeep.

May be I miscalculate something? But my lines show
2950*"BC" 21 4 7 12 160 73
2900*"BC" 22 5 5 12 172 80

That mean that without chop Granry will appear at 2900 BC, when size = 5.

Not sure, where the error is, but I remember very vividly from my test game (using the exact sequence given in Ivan's file) that I marveled at how the granary finished just in time with 16 food in the box. One turn later and we would have wasted a lot of food. templar: "your sequence" is that the one in the excel sheet you sent by mail? I have some time tonight, so I can run another test game with that sequence and check it. (I guess we should check any calculations of ours in an actual test game... The excel sheets are too confusing for me... :crazyeye: :lol: )

If we can really finish the granary on time without the chop, then using the chop for an early curragh might indeed be an excellent idea. But at the moment I don't see it yet.
 
I did a quick comparison of templar's and Ivan's procedure, and the following points strike me:
Pros of templar's suggestion:
  • we have a very early curragh (turn 12 compared to turn 36)
  • we have Writing one turn earlier
Cons:
  • the granary is ready one "cycle" later, so we loose 10 food
  • the first settler is 9 turns later!
  • the extra shields from running 3+3+4 with the roaded forrest don't really seem to pay off: after the granary you build a settler with 35s, a warrior with 14s and another settler with 34s. Many shields wasted anyway. Looks much better to have the second town earlier and then use the 4+2+4 scheme, alternating the wheat with the second town?!
 
@ Ivan, Lanzelot: You are right, the gran on turn 20 requires the chop! The granary is written into the line of turn 21, which caused my confusion again.

This way we get the settler on t25! Other than I would have read it from the ss in t26... that is good.

I cannot see the details of my own first ss (yes Lanzelot, the one I sent by Email) right now, maybe someone could post it?
In Ivan´s, after the first settler, we would still have to get into a factory sequence. If we can get a curragh into that, fine.
In my own, I believe we gained a bit more commerce, but i am not sure. We need to check until Philo if there is only 2 real options left... turn 38 does not sound too bad for me, but we also need to get the right beaker count for Writing to have that happen.

@ Lanzelot - w-granary-w should not be better commerce-wise than w-w-granary. i could not test it now, but the additional commerce used for happy lux would get lost for our research.

re skipping to worker-work the forest: i need to try that in my own ss also.

templar_x

edit @ Lanzelot: the forest ist not for the extra shields, but extra beakers. it was just an idea, coz in my sequence the chop would not be of much use. later i agree the wheat should usually go to the 2nd town. only if we want another curragh, the advantage is that it does not only work as a warrior-settler-factory, but ALSO as a currach-settler factory!
 
If our second town is coastal, we could build the curragh there, as Lanzelot says. I'm with whatever the team decides, this level of planning is way above my skills.
 
@ Lanzelot - w-granary-w should not be better commerce-wise than w-w-granary. i could not test it now, but the additional commerce used for happy lux would get lost for our research.

I didn't want w-granary-w, I wanted w-granary-settler-w. We get the settler earlier, don't run so high on population (and consequently don't need the second MP that earlier).
But if Ivan tested it and found it doesn't pay off, then we can stick with w-w-granary-settler.

Where is ignas? :confused: (When we need him most, he is nowhere to be seen... :crazyeye:)
 
Nobody tested settler,granary(with chop/without)?

2nd town gives 4c,good for research and Gold
can build 2 Warriors
Capitol build Curragh in turn 30 (without chop the granary or)
 
Nobody tested settler,granary(with chop/without)?

No, but might be worth a try. However, in general I find that settler-first is good only if there is a second food bonus for the second town.

I made a test with w-granary-settler-w, though. I reaches Philosophy in exactly the same turn: 38, 2230 BC. However, now I believe it is slightly better, because the first town is one turn earlier (2630 BC, instead of 2590 BC) and consequently the first curragh is already finished at turn 35 instead of 36. (And the third town is in 2430 instead of 2390, though I have no idea why?! :confused:)

What I would now still like to test, is, when we will get Philo, if we omit Pottery. Build order would then probably be something like w-w-curragh-settler. Unfortunately ran out of time tonight. Perhaps someone else can try it. Attached is a sandkasten save, which is PBEM, so it will show the same "worker-behavior" as our real game. (It makes a significant difference, both in food as well as in commerce!) Unfortunately you will need to save and reload between every turn. ("Continue game" can only be used, if you know what you are doing and let the worker "pause" at the right points in time. If you don't do this, because of a bug in "Continue game" it works at double speed, and this will completely distort the result... :D )

For comparison here my results using w-w-granary-settler and w-granary-settler-w:
Philo turn 38, 8 pop, 2 workers, 4 warriors, 1 curragh. The only difference is that in the w-granary-settler-w case both towns and the curragh are 1 turn earlier than in w-w-granary-settler. (Astonishingly food is exactly the same in both cases: in the w-w case the capital has 4 more food in the box, while in the w case the two other towns each have 2 more food in the box!!)

Cheers, Lanzelot
 
I did a quick comparison of templar's and Ivan's procedure, and the following points strike me:
Pros of templar's suggestion:
  • we have a very early curragh (turn 12 compared to turn 36)
  • we have Writing one turn earlier
Cons:
  • the granary is ready one "cycle" later, so we loose 10 food
  • the first settler is 9 turns later!
  • the extra shields from running 3+3+4 with the roaded forrest don't really seem to pay off: after the granary you build a settler with 35s, a warrior with 14s and another settler with 34s. Many shields wasted anyway. Looks much better to have the second town earlier and then use the 4+2+4 scheme, alternating the wheat with the second town?!

i opened both ss now, and i do not see the numbers you mention here:
- settler is "only" 4 turns later,in t29 instead of t25. am i missing something? that is the curragh if we want one
-the food is not "lost", but the cap operates at one pop higher
- (the road on the forest would not be for shields, but commerce and movability. it is only an idea, and after the wheat goes to the 2nd town after it is built every 3 turns, it is only the movability...)
- another feature not mentioned is the flexibility of combo building either warriors or curraghs together with the settlers if the forest was still around (i would not like to work the other forest for that.)

we have to see the alternatives clearly, and correctly. i do not mean i favour this version. my expansionist playing style maybe even prefers the earlier settler. but i am not sure yet.

so i rewrote both ss to my writing style, so i do not get confused so much. now in both ss every build stands in the line when it is built (not in the next turn). in Ivan´s ss i added the 10s from the forest chop. in my own updated ss i integrated in brackets () when the granary would be ready if we skip the curragh and a) the forest was chopped or b) the forest was not chopped (here the gran finishes on growth :()

again, if we skip worker-working the forest altogether (forgoing "movability"), we can have the ivory worked and online earlier.

templar_x
 

Attachments

  • Ivan´s w_w_ granary-settler variant.txt
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  • Marcel´s initial w_w_curragh_granary_settler ss.txt
    2.2 KB · Views: 66
I think it is not right to move warriors/Granary 1 line up.
Look, at first turn 3950 BC nothing in the shield bin.
Warrior ready to go at turn 6. At turn 7 it will be 4 sch in bin.
The same with Granary.
 
of course, at the beginning of the turn nothing is in the shields bin. but by the end of the turn... there is commerce calculated, food calculated, and shields calculated. since shields come last, and then the ibt and the "build phase", you could theoretically assume that the shields are added only in the NEXT turn. but that does not only sound totally illogical to me (everything calculated in the old turn, but shields not), but also contradicts what i see if i break into the build phase on ibt.

practically, it does not mind much, only it is confusing to me if the build which you have enough shields collected to build it with is not put into the same line as the last shields are.

templar_x
 
- settler is "only" 4 turns later,in t29 instead of t25. am i missing something?

Oops, sorry, I completely overlooked the settler in t29 and thought the one in t35 was actually the first one...

Doing a "Writing first" test now...

... Results:
First curragh t11.
First settler t21.
Writing t25.
Second curragh t27.
Second settler t33.
Philosophy t35.

Perhaps it can be sped up by a turn or two, if we delay the first settler a bit. But we don't have anything useful to build then: every additional unit would cost maintenance, and we certainly don't want to build barracks or the Pyramids, do we...:lol:

So I think this is not worth it. Especially if you consider the following stats (continued 3 more turns to get to t38):
Population 7, 1 worker, 3 warriors, 3 curraghs
compared to
Population 8, 2 workers, 4 warriors, 1 curragh, 1 granary and one extra tech in the "Pottery first" scenario

So I guess: settle in place, worker to wheat, start Pottery?
We can then still fine tune the worker and build sequence.

Lanzelot
 
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