UK faces the highest inequality levels for 40 years

[brennan]

My work work work attitude is what affords me the leisure of race cars, trips around the world if I want and plenty of other hobbies ...

It's not your natural talent, skills, education and training then? I mean, what are you saying; poor people are all just as capable as you but they're just lazy? Even the ones who hold down two jobs 'just to make ends meet'?

 

[MobBoss]

Who do you think buy the products that enable the high earners to have that money?

Not the poor or low income people. Remember, being 'poor' means you are not able to afford such products.

Didn't you have a government job? Who do think paid your salary?

The taxpayers pay my salary. Do the taxpayers in the UK pay the rich sectors salary? Hell no. The rich are not government employees, the are more likely to be private investors/corporate heads.

A delebritely negative answer because you don't agree with the premise.

Correct. I think the premise that the rich make their cash off the backs of the poor to be laughable in todays modern society.

As I said, failure to udnerstand how a society works. High earners make their money of the people using those wealfare programmes.

Again, HOW? The way you say this its like the rich are charging the poor for partaking in the welfare programs. Ridiculous.

Without an educated, healthy society who have the money to spend, these high earners wouldn't have the lifestyle they do.

Now you contradict yourself. On one hand you say this, and then on the other you say the rich make money off the poor. Do you classify your poor as educated/healthy/have money to spend?

Besides, they do use the roads or the police and the military to name some examples.

How does a rich person 'use' the military? Or the police for that matter.

To name another example, if trapped in a burning building it would be national fireman and national heathcare servicemen and woman who'd be the ones saving them.

How do you know it wouldnt be their own employed bodyguard/security agent pulling them out? Or their own private doctor that cares for them afterword?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Not the poor or low income people. Remember, being 'poor' means you are not able to afford such products.

Low earners buy food and clothes and alike, do they not?

The taxpayers pay my salary. Do the taxpayers in the UK pay the rich sectors salary? Hell no. The rich are not government employees, the are more likely to be private investors/corporate heads.

I'm talking about society as a whole, your twisting the questions.

Correct. I think the premise that the rich make their cash off the backs of the poor to be laughable in todays modern society.

So you do actually believe money grows on tree's then!

Again, HOW? The way you say this its like the rich are charging the poor for partaking in the welfare programs. Ridiculous.

Oh please, you make yourself look foolish. Do you not understand the concept of buissness and customers? You know handing over cash for a product and all that?

Now you contradict yourself. On one hand you say this, and then on the other you say the rich make money off the poor. Do you classify your poor as educated/healthy/have money to spend?

See above answer(s).

How does a rich person 'use' the military? Or the police for that matter.

Isn't it obvious? Cowem on, surely your not naive enough to fail to see how a high earner is protected by these 2 services.

How do you know it wouldnt be their own employed bodyguard/security agent pulling them out? Or their own private doctor that cares for them afterword?

I'm talking about high-eaners, not just billionairs.

 

[skadistic]

It's not your natural talent, skills, education and training then? I mean, what are you saying; poor people are all just as capable as you but they're just lazy? Even the ones who hold down two jobs 'just to make ends meet'?

Poor people are just as capable if they try. Every one has natural talent. Skills and training came from working hard. My education is a high school graduate and 1 year at a tech school in a field I don't work in. DThe ones working two jobs to make ends meet clearly didn't plan well before they found them selves behind. Had they tried harder in school or tried harder to learn the skill sets needed to advance in the work force they wouldn't be where they are. Unless your ******** you don't have a reason to be poor only excuses. If an immigrant who can barely speak english can come to a country and build an empire why can't the natives? Because the immigrants try harder and make sacrifices. See sig.

 

[MobBoss]

So you do actually believe money grows on tree's then!

No. I believe it takes hard work, time and good investment/spending decisions to 'grow money'.

Oh please, you make yourself look foolish. Do you not understand the concept of buissness and customers? You know handing over cash for a product and all that?

Yes, I understand all that. Do you? How does any of that indicate that the rich are making their money off the poor participating in welfare programs as you allege?

Again, you apparently have no concept of investment and how real wealth is generated.

 

[C~G]

Poor people are just as capable if they try. Every one has natural talent.

I agree even though I have to add "if they are given chance early and often".

Skills and training came from working hard.

You mean experience and ability to do things comes through educating one self with these if you have a chance to do so.

Had they tried harder in school or tried harder to learn the skill sets needed to advance in the work force they wouldn't be where they are.

Yes, it's all about trying hard. Especially about trying. Even though the term ""trying" does imply there's chance for failure.

Unless your ******** you don't have a reason to be poor only excuses.

That is relieve to all the poor people of the world. As poor person you are either ******** or have poor excuse of where you are. But don't me get wrong, if you had tried and not failed you could have succeeded.

If an immigrant who can barely speak english can come to a country and build an empire why can't the natives? Because the immigrants try harder and make sacrifices.

Yeah right. Question is how many immigrants and natives can pull that off and can build an empire. Like said, it's similar to lottery ticket. Nothing to do with trying hard.

Everyone even numerous poor people try hard and quite often they fail because numerous of reasons unrelated of them trying hard. It's shameful act to offer them chance to just live without doing anything but it's as shameful not to offer reasonable opportunity improve themselves and pursuit that happiness (with blend of success).

 

[brennan]

So we should all be high-earners? Who's going to cook our executive lunches? Build our expensive cars? Clean our streets? Unblock our toilets?

Spoiler :

Robots?

There's a limit to the number of jobs that can be done by college kids working part-time. Or retards. You are trying to pretend that half the jobs there are don't exist but somebody has to do them. They certainly wouldn't get done if it was as easy as you suggest for everyone to be a high flyer.

Methinks you are guilty of using yourself as an anecdote...

 

[ComradeDavo]

No. I believe it takes hard work, time and good investment/spending decisions to 'grow money'.

Yes, I understand all that. Do you? How does any of that indicate that the rich are making their money off the poor participating in welfare programs as you allege?

Again, you apparently have no concept of investment and how real wealth is generated.

It's impossiable to have a reasonable debate with you when you twist terms and meanings, misintreprete what I say (probably delibretely) and ignpore any facts/statements you disagree with.

 

[skadistic]

I agree even though I have to add "if they are given chance early and often".Why do chances have to be given? Why not take a chance, create one.
You mean experience and ability to do things comes through educating one self with these if you have a chance to do so. Again anyone can start working. I worked construction and learned on the job. But to many are above manual labour. Hard work is beneath them.
Yes, it's all about trying hard. Especially about trying. Even though the term ""trying" does imply there's chance for failure. Only those who don't try hard enough fail. Or they could go on about how hard it is and just take the dole.
That is relieve to all the poor people of the world. As poor person you are either ******** or have poor excuse of where you are. But don't me get wrong, if you had tried and not failed you could have succeeded. If they had tried hard they wouldn't have failed.
Yeah right. Question is how many immigrants and natives can pull that off and can build an empire. Like said, it's similar to lottery ticket. Nothing to do with trying hard.With an attitude like that why do you bother posting. Its nothing like a lottery ticket and if you think it is you know nothing of effort, dedication and hard work.The only immigrants and natives who make empires are the ones who work hardest to get it.

Everyone even numerous poor people try hard and quite often they fail because numerous of reasons unrelated of them trying hard. It's shameful act to offer them chance to just live without doing anything but it's as shameful not to offer reasonable opportunity improve themselves and pursuit that happiness (with blend of success).

Every one has opportunities most squander them away. Some even make their own opportunities out of nothing. But I guess if its not "given" there are chances.

 

[BasketCase]

How is this "wealth divide" a bad thing???

The bottom rung on the scale cannot move; there will always be a zero lurking down there, and nothing will ever get rid of it. Which leaves us exactly two options: either elevate some people above zero, or reduce all people to zero.

Which leads me back to an old favorite. You have ten starving people and one cheeseburger. Who gets the cheeseburger? Do you save one person, or starve all ten to death for the sake of fairness?? (Some people tried to cheat the poll in various ways, such as splitting the cheeseburger among two or three people, but the inescapable conclusion was that several people were going to starve to death no matter what).

What we have in the world today is simply the best we can do. Improving technology will, over time, further improve life--for some people. It's simply unavoidable.

 

[Godwynn]

So we should all be high-earners? Who's going to cook our executive lunches? Build our expensive cars? Clean our streets? Unblock our toilets?

I think you are forgetting one key part of economics. As the supply of those workers shrink and there is still demand, their wage will go up.

 

[innonimatu]

I think you are forgetting one key part of economics. As the supply of those workers shrink and there is still demand, their wage will go up.

Yes, it should go up in relative terms. Or rather, it should keep with the overall rise in wealth.
We''re discussing why it hasn't. Simply shrugging it of as natural may not be a good idea.

 

[Godwynn]

Yes, it should go up in relative terms. Or rather, it should keep with the overall rise in wealth.
We''re discussing why it hasn't. Simply shrugging it of as natural may not be a good idea.

Has the population of uneducated workers in Britain gone up due to birth rates or immigration?

 

[C~G]

If they had tried hard they wouldn't have failed.

Yes, all amateur sports man are failures as they didn't just try enough to become succesful professional athletes. Those lazy bums.

In all seriousness and after the quite simple (yet effective?) analogy, it isn't about trying hard or even harder.
That is just the first step. In order to succeed you need to try hard at the right place at the right time in the right way. Not all are cabable pulling that you know. There are numerous reasons for it and it's unfortunately people have also handicaps that effect the possibility of success even from their childhood.

I think you are forgetting one key part of economics. As the supply of those workers shrink and there is still demand, their wage will go up.

Unless you have poor working reserve (readily available in form of immigrants, students, uneducated bums or retards) that are dying to get any work available.

If you ask me "try harder and don't be a lazy poor bum" is society's way to say that people should take whatever is offered to them and not rebel since it's not getting any better in any other way but just being "hard worker".
Of course it's BS, but it's nice moralist story with supposed happy ending which lure people to play the game as it is desired by those succesful in the society.

Fable, in short.

 

[Godwynn]

Unless you have poor working reserve (readily available in form of immigrants, students, uneducated bums or retards) that are dying to get any work available.

Exactly. The rich are not 'out to get the poor' this is an Econ 101 problem.

 

[Merkinball]

Those unwilling to sacrifice are undeserving of the reward.

And in my opinion, help from the rest of society as well. I don't know about attitudes in Europe, but here in America, at least a solid majority of the people that are on social welfare programs have no desire to become anything more than what they are, and give nothing to better the communities around them.

It's not your natural talent, skills, education and training then? I mean, what are you saying; poor people are all just as capable as you but they're just lazy? Even the ones who hold down two jobs 'just to make ends meet'? - brennan

Hard work goes beyond working two crummy jobs. It begins at the onset of high school. The fact of the matter, for America anyway, is that if a student at least does their homework, and studies the slightest bit in school, if they attend school regularly, if they graduate with A's or even high B's, they will propel themselves into middle classdom. Even in the worst of public schools.

People end up working two crummy jobs just to make ends meet because they messed up somewhere along the line. People who are studious, have good work ethics, and pick up a trade or skill will never be "poor." Most people have the same capabilities as you and I. And for those who are able bodied, and not mentally handicapped, there's simply no excuse.

How does a rich person 'use' the military? Or the police for that matter.

There's a limit to the number of jobs that can be done by college kids working part-time. Or retards. You are trying to pretend that half the jobs there are don't exist but somebody has to do them. They certainly wouldn't get done if it was as easy as you suggest for everyone to be a high flyer. - brennan

Most people in these jobs aren't mentally disabled, college kids, or high school kids. Particularly in Europe where very few college and high school aged kids work. The fact of the matter is that if everyone was well educated, that there would be more entrepenuerism, more markets for higher end jobs. You are correct that there must always be people to do those lower jobs, but with education comes the ability to demand a higher wage. If everyone had a BS degree in something, they would want to be in the field of their choice, but they would have the ability to say, "I'm not gonna clean your toilets unless you pay me a higher wage." Don't want to pay me that wage? Fine, clean your own damn toilet. It will increase national productivity.

All you really need is a work ethic, and the drive to succeed, and most employers will hire you. Show up to work on time, do what you are supposed to do, seek additional training above and beyond common duties, be motivated...you don't need a degree in anything to get a middle class wage in America if you have these things.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Which leads me back to an old favorite. You have ten starving people and one cheeseburger. Who gets the cheeseburger? Do you save one person, or starve all ten to death for the sake of fairness?? (Some people tried to cheat the poll in various ways, such as splitting the cheeseburger among two or three people, but the inescapable conclusion was that several people were going to starve to death no matter what).

Maybe your favourite, but a better analogy to this is:

You have 10 starving people and 40 cheseburgers. Now answer me who gets howmany cheeseburgers

Our society is one of abundance, not shortage.

 

[bhsup]

How would you define a familly who is not able to afford any luxuries? All their money is spend on food and rent.
What about them?

Self-sufficient. Especially in the UK where health care costs will never be a concern, yes?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Self-sufficient. Especially in the UK where health care costs will never be a concern, yes?

Sure, eat work, ****. That's all someone needs right? As long as your garbage bags magically disapear, it's all good.

But I figure you'd call them luxuriously challenged as well, instead of poor right?

 

[BasketCase]

Maybe your favourite, but a better analogy to this is:

You have 10 starving people and 40 cheseburgers. Now answer me who gets howmany cheeseburgers

Our society is one of abundance, not shortage.

Actually, our society is one where hunger is still a problem. You left 390 extra people out of your rather bad example.

Our society (mine being the U.S., I've no idea where you live) is in fact one of relative abundance. But then, that's irrelevant. The issue is that X number of people have a lot more wealth and goodies than others; state and national boundaries are unimportant to the question. "How is it fair for people in Beverly Hills to be better off than people in Jersey City???" some people ask. "How is it fair for people in England to be better off than people in Cambodia???" others ask. Same question, different location.

The world as a whole is, in fact, a world of shortage. To which I remind everybody of this poll I posted in CFC a long, long time ago.

Imagine the world's wealth (as measured by GNP) was divided evenly amongst every human being alive on Earth. At the time I did the poll, that came out to $11,000 per person per year. That's $11,000 for ALL your needs. Food, housing, transportation, movie tickets, cool sunglasses, everything. For life. With no chance of a raise, ever.​

The overwhelming majority of CFC members (yes, YOU PEOPLE) found $11,000 unacceptable.

See? World of shortage.


Edit: Oh, and by the way--I voted "hell no" in that poll. Freedom means choosing your own profession. Choosing what you want to do with your life (the word for other people selecting your profession for you is "fascism"). Which means your paycheck is going to vary depending on how much the rest of the world values your work. If you're a lazy-ass and don't want to put in 40 hours a week, fine. Your choice.