UNGY-02 We like our people

I'll try to remember this time :p

For those who don't know: to disable BUG, just rename your "Custom Assets" folder. When you start the game, it'll create another "Custom Assets". If you want to play with BUG again, just delete the "Custom Assets" folder and rename your initial folder back to "Custom Assets" ;)

Also, Rusten, the BUG doesn't only crush when you open the turn log, also the replay will only work until BUG is used.
 
I will remember this time! :salute:
fixed.

I don't care about the replay thingie, never watch it. :) When it comes down to gameplay however it matters a lot, that event log is especially important/useful in succession games as it will be so much easier to jump in after someone.
 
Rusten said:
:lol:

Thing is I never check my assets before playing.

I like watching the replay, you just see how everything developed... so many nice colors :crazyeye:
 
It looks like we have a growing consensus:

-No GLH
-Justinian's copper is just that
-Wheel
-Exploration is a priority
-Settle 1SE of horse?

I can't actually play for 10 hours so still plenty of time to discuss alternatives. The Wheel comes with so many more advantages than Archery that I thinks its a clear winner.

What tech after Wheel?
 
mystyfly said:
Techwise I say wheel (not a matter of whether we want to use chariots, unless we want archers) > writing > (pottery) > IW
That was my suggestion. We want writing to start generating GSs and to control Athenes growth when not building settlers/workers. Pottery isn't that much of a priority since we're not planning on running many cottages. Also we'll plant cottages in our new cities and those need to grow first anyway. IW to get access to a metal, if there is none in the cap's BFC, we'll at least know where to look for it.

Don't know if I wrote that already... Anyway, Horse city, could this be our future capital? considering KK near us to the east, it might be pretty much in the middle of our empire (nice upkeep-wise) and has very nice tiles to work its numberous cottages, and is thus nice for buerocracy. It has only a few hammers until we build workshops but this will hopefully not be that much of an issue.
 
Pottery still unlocks the granary. That too is less of an importance with no whipping though, so maybe we'll skip it for now and head to writing asap?

I think we will have trouble claiming that marble as Justinian is really close to it, so maybe we should go for alphabet instead of aesthetics? It would save a tech for wfyabta and we won't have to spend some turns into alphabet before trading. This would also help us get to CoL earlier which is a priority without slavery (and also pacifism). Neither Kublai nor Justinian are known to tech alphabet early, so we might get stuck with aesthetics. We should track down those other AIs.

the wheel -> writing -> alphabet -> currency (hopefully picking up mathematics on the way - and obviously IW)? Sailing might make sense as well for trade routes, but we'll decide that after scouting. At any rate, the wheel and writing should be before sailing. Basically we will get alphabet almost as fast as a beeline for IW if we skip sailing and pottery for now, I think that's pretty strong here as we want caste system asap.

The city 1SE of the horse will have the plains ivory as well, so there's enough hammers to make important infrastructure. I'm not sure about making it our capital though, the jungle might be better, but we need to scout it first. Gems and dye will be a lot of sweet commerce. I'm dying to see what the north-eastern and western territory looks like, the next 10 hours will be a pain.
 
Fixed his sentence, you'll see that they don't match. ;) Stay clear of BUG until someone can confirm with 100% certainty that all is well, rumours don't cut it.
 
@silverbullet: Nah I think he meant his "quote". I said I'd try to remember and he "quoted" that I will remember or something like this.

Rusten, good point on ABC. I often go aesthetics but here it might be less effective. OTOH it depends on the AIs we meet. If the others are shaka & friends, ABC clearly better, if there is MM & the club, aesth might be better.

Not sure about sailing. Sailing unlocks lighthouse we don't need atm. We'll have to spend our early production in athenes on settlers/workers and WBs. I like to scout the coast with one WB. We won't be building the lighthouse early as we have plenty of food and aren't going to settle more cities on the coast atm. Here too it depends on the surroundings. But to block Just, it doesn't look to me that we'll found coastal cities. I hope we can delay blocking Just (meaning he has more land even further west) as jungle cities early simply cost a lot and waste many worker turns.

You also suggest currency before CoL, rusten. Any particular reason? CS will be very important, it spares us monuments for example and we can turn athenes into a 100% specs city. Currency gives more trade routs, the ability to build wealth, to trade gold and unlocks markets. None of these things is that important now I think. If we don't settle coastal cities, it'll take quite some time until we connect them and even then, they'll only generate 1 commerce each. Markets aren't likely to be built, we'll need our hammers for units. I definitely don't want to be axerushed. Also the start doesn't look like we'll run into money problems caused by overexpansion. And if we should, we still can hire merchants instead of scientists. What am I missing?
 
Sailing would be for trade routes with other civs which again would benefit greatly from currency. I'm a big fan of currency as it's an instant boost and it's also required for CoL unless you go priesthood (but even then it will reduce the cost of researching). Secondly currency allows selling of techs to AIs with extra gold. On deity you always get a lot of gold from that tech and it's awesome to tech broker with, but it's the same thing on immortal, just to a lesser extent. We should be able to sell cheap techs to AIs for spare change on immortal as well. The fact that there are at least 4 AIs nearby makes currency a great pick -> trade routes, selling techs and asking for gold to pleased AIs. Currency is one of my favourite techs in the game.

Are you suggesting mysticism -> poly/medi -> priesthood? That's a lot of beakers as well and I believe currency is much more beneficial.

PS. We don't need monuments regardless of what we do, did you forget we're creative? :D
 
Rusten said:
PS. We don't need monuments regardless of what we do, did you forget we're creative?
D'oh! It's too long I haven't played with my favourite trait... :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting mysticism -> poly/medi -> priesthood? That's a lot of beakers as well and I believe currency is much more beneficial.
Yeah you're right.
I was just thinking that CoL itself is more benefical on this map with those settings. However I also enjoy begging and selling old techs.

What is your suggestion for tech path now? writing > sailing > IW > ABC > currency?

I don't like teching IW that early but we cannot settle west unless we can chop jungles and if we don't settle there, Just will have a huge empire in next to no time.
 
A long-term thought:

We might want to open borders with Justinian early so that he'll spread buddhism to us. He's one of those AI's that will spend a lot of hammers on missionaries, so we won't have to do it ourselves. Secondly he's easy to get to friendly due to civic and valuing religion highly, so we might want to befriend him for a nice buffer-zone westwards (depends on what AIs we meet and whether other religions are bigger) to be able to focus on Kublai. Thirdly, he's very likely to be the one constructing the AP.

It's still very soon, so obviously we won't commit ourselves to this, just throwing the thought out there so that everyone can keep it in mind if the opportunity arrises.
 
What is your suggestion for tech path now?

It's a little hard to say as of yet, we need Olodune's set first. The wheel -> writing should be clear, but it depends on where we put our cities and what the map looks like. I usually stay clear of monarchy and the religious techs for a while on a map like this. Units cost upkeep and calendar (plantations) give happiness as well so if we claim that dye I'd be more set on alphabet -> currency, CoL and calendar than the lower part to CoL.

We will get alphabet very soon though as we're creative and have lots of food (fast library and can run 2 scientists right away), so it shouldn't be a problem to go alphabet and then trade for IW (the AI will get IW really fast, always, there's no chance we won't be able to trade for it with alphabet), so my suggestion is the upper part of the tech tree (minus aesthetics). We will still be able to settle in the jungle IMO. Creative means that we're bound to find some non-jungle tiles to work right away too.

edit: construction (our half-price UB (odeon)) is also on that path.
 
I think this depends on where the religions are founded. If we are the only target civ where just can spread buddhism (either because we box him in or because he delays writing), he won't convert other AIs. And it's no good idea adopting a religion only one other AI has. If we don't OB with him, he probabely techs writing earlier. Not sure but isn't the AI less likely to spread to us if we already have religions in our cities? that might create a problem. Good point about the AP though. We'll definitely want buddhism. But if We box Just in and everyone else is hindu we'll get diplo problems with the other AIs if we have an OB with him - which means he can't spread buddhism further.

I think it's too early to decide. OB is a good thing but probabely not longer than it takes to spread once. Also we can get trade routes to other AIs as well.

BTW this is only speculation - no real experience / knowledge, just following some thoughts :D
 
I think this depends on where the religions are founded. If we are the only target civ where just can spread buddhism (either because we box him in or because he delays writing), he won't convert other AIs.
We already know this is not the case. As I mentioned earlier we had/have more spy points on him than he had/has on us, so there's at least 1 more AI to the west/south-west (he has not met Kublai).
 
We have some time before the Currency/CoL debate, but generally I prefer Currency -- Caste is very important for us, but food surplus should be going towards growth/workers/settlers for a good while yet.

Early Sailing might be good to pick up -- trade route are powerful and require minimum investment.
 
I know we're not the only civ he knows and he doesn't know KK. But there might be 1 civ in the west, which is only reachable by galley (ok it's unlikely that he already made contact with them but possible - coastal start and contact via WB) or the other civ there founded Hinduism and they wouldn't open borders.

I think what you wrote in post #72 is good to keep in mind but it's too early to decide. It just depends on parameters we don't know yet.
 
Exactly, that's why I also wrote ->
It's still very soon, so obviously we won't commit ourselves to this, just throwing the thought out there so that everyone can keep it in mind if the opportunity arrises.

Just for the record, Justinian's favourite civic is theocracy to those not remembering (KK bureaucracy).
 
Rusten said:
Just for the record, Justinian's favourite civic is theocracy to those not remembering (KK bureaucracy).
What do you want to say with this? Any religious fanatic is hardly impossible to convert when he/she founded a religion, theocracy or not.
I didn't know KK's favourice civic - nice to know, this clearly makes things easier.

Are we commited to a VC yet? Another military approach clearly will be interesting given the neighbours and the variant rules. Wars in general will be inevitable anyway, me thinks.
 
What I meant is that it's a civic we will probably be running (unlike if it was for instance police state). We will be able to bump him to friendly easily, I'm not suggesting converting him.
 
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