UNGY-02 We like our people
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
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- May 21, 2007
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Go ahead and play, olodune, you're torturing me
Me too, but I don't have Civ installed at work .... hmmmm .... nope, definitely not a good idea.
I will depend on what further scouting shows, but at the moment I'd rather befriend Kublai than Justinian.
Same here, but they're both great civs to ally with given their civics and personality so it all boils down to what we scout during the following set(s). Kublai produces a lot of troops and usually handles them well and if he falls behind in techs we can just gift him some. That might not be necessary though as he's usually one of the top AIs capable of keeping up in every aspect of the game.
- Joined
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I played until turn 50 (17 turns), there were no major surprises so far.
Wheel is chosen as our tech, it would be followed by Agriculture, and Writing is about halfway finished.
Rusten's comment about barbarians looking to eat out scout proved prophetical, as the first barb archer is spotted.
A few turns later:
Still running ....
After building warrior->workboat->warrior our capital is tasked to pump out a settler (partially assisted by chops).
Sparta is founded:
Our warrior heading to the Northeast spots a very close Mongol Horde (as expected), and runs into a scout (coming from the east) carrying a rising sun emblem:
Another friendly leader
At turn 50 we've revealed the Mongolian desert:
As well as more land to our west:
Athens has started to receive shipments of ivory, and is working nicely improved tiles:
Our workers are by Sparta, Horses will be connected (to Sparta) in 3 turns -- getting a few chariots out should be a priority as there are many barbarian archers around. Athens can build 1t warriors in an emergency ...
Sadly, just before the end our brave scout was finally cornered:
After Writing I think we should go Sailing->Alphabet (IW, instead?)
I'm not sure where to build the next city, other than to the West. Perhaps on the dye, grabbing gems+rice (and with 4 chopable forests).
Roster:
Rusten
Olodune << just played
Ungy << on skip, right?
Pigswill << up
Mystyfly << deck
Melior
Silverbullet
Wheel is chosen as our tech, it would be followed by Agriculture, and Writing is about halfway finished.
Rusten's comment about barbarians looking to eat out scout proved prophetical, as the first barb archer is spotted.
A few turns later:
Still running ....
After building warrior->workboat->warrior our capital is tasked to pump out a settler (partially assisted by chops).
Sparta is founded:
Our warrior heading to the Northeast spots a very close Mongol Horde (as expected), and runs into a scout (coming from the east) carrying a rising sun emblem:
Another friendly leader
At turn 50 we've revealed the Mongolian desert:
As well as more land to our west:
Athens has started to receive shipments of ivory, and is working nicely improved tiles:
Our workers are by Sparta, Horses will be connected (to Sparta) in 3 turns -- getting a few chariots out should be a priority as there are many barbarian archers around. Athens can build 1t warriors in an emergency ...
Sadly, just before the end our brave scout was finally cornered:
After Writing I think we should go Sailing->Alphabet (IW, instead?)
I'm not sure where to build the next city, other than to the West. Perhaps on the dye, grabbing gems+rice (and with 4 chopable forests).
Roster:
Rusten
Olodune << just played
Ungy << on skip, right?
Pigswill << up
Mystyfly << deck
Melior
Silverbullet
Aren't all of my comments prophetical? 
Looking good, great jungle exploration, know exactly what we need to know in order to make a decision.
After seeing the updated map I wouldn't mind going straight for IW either and try to plant a city between the ivory, rice and 2 gems (2 is even more impressive than 1!), but trading for it via alphabet works too as we have other tiles to work there. Researching it ourselves removes another tech from WFYABTA though, and the sooner we get those gems the better, but it's up for discussion.
The gems are self-explanatory, but it would be awesome to grab a 3rd ivory tile and even more awesome if we can keep Justinian from getting it. Ivory is rated extremely high with the AI, you can get several resources and gold for it in trade (because it unlocks elephants in addition to
), so they're a big priority to catch.
Having Toku up there with Kublai is rather unfortunate as they're grouped together in the AI sheets in a way that they get + modifier to each other. You'll see in the diplomacy screen that they're already pleased with each other without modifiers. This means Kublai is more likely to seek/capture land towards/from us in order to get out of that miserable desert of his. With that in mind it might be wise not to expand north at all, but rather towards Justinian - both for safety and because the land is much better.
Edit: and yes, ungy is away for some days. I suggest he gets swapped and just jump in when he's back which puts pigswill next indeed.
The spot between the gems and the rice is also very promising as a future capital with plenty of commerce (gems and riverside). The rice will allow speedy growth and support cottages and the hills can get windmilled later in the game when they're a superb tile (or cottaged as well with some farm aid, none of them are plains hills).
Looking good, great jungle exploration, know exactly what we need to know in order to make a decision.
After seeing the updated map I wouldn't mind going straight for IW either and try to plant a city between the ivory, rice and 2 gems (2 is even more impressive than 1!), but trading for it via alphabet works too as we have other tiles to work there. Researching it ourselves removes another tech from WFYABTA though, and the sooner we get those gems the better, but it's up for discussion.The gems are self-explanatory, but it would be awesome to grab a 3rd ivory tile and even more awesome if we can keep Justinian from getting it. Ivory is rated extremely high with the AI, you can get several resources and gold for it in trade (because it unlocks elephants in addition to
), so they're a big priority to catch.Having Toku up there with Kublai is rather unfortunate as they're grouped together in the AI sheets in a way that they get + modifier to each other. You'll see in the diplomacy screen that they're already pleased with each other without modifiers. This means Kublai is more likely to seek/capture land towards/from us in order to get out of that miserable desert of his. With that in mind it might be wise not to expand north at all, but rather towards Justinian - both for safety and because the land is much better.
Edit: and yes, ungy is away for some days. I suggest he gets swapped and just jump in when he's back which puts pigswill next indeed.
The spot between the gems and the rice is also very promising as a future capital with plenty of commerce (gems and riverside). The rice will allow speedy growth and support cottages and the hills can get windmilled later in the game when they're a superb tile (or cottaged as well with some farm aid, none of them are plains hills).
- Joined
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The Ivory/Rice/Gems city is better than the Dye/Gem/Rice city, but the latter is more immediately useful (less jungle including on the rice). Still I think Rusten is right, grabbing that 3rd Ivory would be a real coup ... and would be a bold move , ReXing towards Justinian.
silverbullet
King
Some other things to consider :
What if Justinian beats us to the double gems/rice/elephants spot?
What if he doesn't and we can claim copper (settling right on top of the elephant and losing 1 gems, but we can later get it in the dye city)?
Or how about settling 1S of rice and starting to compete on the banana? If we adopt the same religion as Justinian the close borders tension shouldn't matter much.
Is the general plan to chop a chariot in Sparta and build a settler in Athens?
What if Justinian beats us to the double gems/rice/elephants spot?
What if he doesn't and we can claim copper (settling right on top of the elephant and losing 1 gems, but we can later get it in the dye city)?
Or how about settling 1S of rice and starting to compete on the banana? If we adopt the same religion as Justinian the close borders tension shouldn't matter much.
Is the general plan to chop a chariot in Sparta and build a settler in Athens?
His holy city will cover the copper tile at 500 culture (which is very soon), so I don't think we want to start pushing for that one. The banana is already within his borders as you can see from the resource bubble in the screen which indicates that it's in his first ring (not 100% sure though) which means it'll be almost impossible to have it flip to us especially as we'll have it in our 2nd ring due to gems. Later on the holy city will expand its culture into the banana tile too (if not at 500 already, need a closer look) making it worse as we'll only have 1 city pushing it. I think we should just accept that those resources are out of our hands at this point.
I doubt Justinian will beat us to the spot with a city, because the AI usually postpone settling into the jungle until most/all other nearby spots are taken. If we move there now we should get it. If he does in fact settle there we can fall back on the site Olodune mentioned and hope to culture flip the gems, at least it's nowhere near his holy city.
I doubt Justinian will beat us to the spot with a city, because the AI usually postpone settling into the jungle until most/all other nearby spots are taken. If we move there now we should get it. If he does in fact settle there we can fall back on the site Olodune mentioned and hope to culture flip the gems, at least it's nowhere near his holy city.
Just to clarify how culture works:
- When you reach 10 culture (first pop) your start pouring hidden culture per turn into your first ring and when you reach 100 culture (2nd pop) you start pouring hidden culture every turn into the second ring of the BFC (20 per turn IIRC, but I'm very sleepy atm so don't hold me to that number). As the banana is already within his border and buddhism is very likely to spread there (or him making a monument) he will start pouring hidden culture into the tile a long time before us which makes it painful, if not impossible, to flip the tile before the game is over.
If he however settles a new city claiming the gems we can start a cultural war hoping to beat him into that hidden culture. This is why creative is such a great trait for tile-grabbing. You get way more than the 2 culture per turn that you see, you effectively reach those 10 and 100 culture milestones which makes stealing tiles and keeping your BFC much easier.
- When you reach 10 culture (first pop) your start pouring hidden culture per turn into your first ring and when you reach 100 culture (2nd pop) you start pouring hidden culture every turn into the second ring of the BFC (20 per turn IIRC, but I'm very sleepy atm so don't hold me to that number). As the banana is already within his border and buddhism is very likely to spread there (or him making a monument) he will start pouring hidden culture into the tile a long time before us which makes it painful, if not impossible, to flip the tile before the game is over.
If he however settles a new city claiming the gems we can start a cultural war hoping to beat him into that hidden culture. This is why creative is such a great trait for tile-grabbing. You get way more than the 2 culture per turn that you see, you effectively reach those 10 and 100 culture milestones which makes stealing tiles and keeping your BFC much easier.
silverbullet
King
Good point about the holy city, I forgot about that.
BTW, the banana is in the 2nd ring of the 2nd city (the city is 1N 2W according to the cultural border shape - hard to see on the map but I opened the save to look closely), and the holy city will not get it at it's next culture pop, only in 2 culture pops. That should give us enough time to start competing. If we get our 3rd culture pop before Justinian's 2nd city we should be able to get the banana. If we are lucky he will build the plantation for us. With so many hills around extra food is nice for temporary building boost (though it should be mainly a commerce city).
I agree the copper is lost.
Anyway, I am not sure we should take such a gambit. Justinian can build monuments and temples and we cannot whip those easily, and his 2nd city is already at 2nd ring, so I agree it would be best to avoid the banana.
Rusten:
I think the hidden tile culture works like this:
city radius 1 (0-9 culture): +20 culture for city tile, +1 culture for 1st ring(EVEN if the city generates 0 city culture)
city radius 2 (10-99): city tile 40/turn, 1st ring 20/turn, 2nd ring 1/turn
city radius 3 (100-499): city tile 60/turn, 1st ring 40/turn, 2nd ring 20/turn, 3rd ring 1/turn.
And so on. The outer most ring generates 1/turn and every internal ring generates extra 20 culture.
In addition ALL city tiles on all rings get the city culture added to the tile culture, so it's very hard to flip even the outer ring of a wonder-spammed city.
I agree creative is great for that (and Zara is even greater). It's not about the raw culture per turn, it's the race to the 3rd ring that counts.
BTW, the banana is in the 2nd ring of the 2nd city (the city is 1N 2W according to the cultural border shape - hard to see on the map but I opened the save to look closely), and the holy city will not get it at it's next culture pop, only in 2 culture pops. That should give us enough time to start competing. If we get our 3rd culture pop before Justinian's 2nd city we should be able to get the banana. If we are lucky he will build the plantation for us. With so many hills around extra food is nice for temporary building boost (though it should be mainly a commerce city).
I agree the copper is lost.
Anyway, I am not sure we should take such a gambit. Justinian can build monuments and temples and we cannot whip those easily, and his 2nd city is already at 2nd ring, so I agree it would be best to avoid the banana.
Rusten:
I think the hidden tile culture works like this:
city radius 1 (0-9 culture): +20 culture for city tile, +1 culture for 1st ring(EVEN if the city generates 0 city culture)
city radius 2 (10-99): city tile 40/turn, 1st ring 20/turn, 2nd ring 1/turn
city radius 3 (100-499): city tile 60/turn, 1st ring 40/turn, 2nd ring 20/turn, 3rd ring 1/turn.
And so on. The outer most ring generates 1/turn and every internal ring generates extra 20 culture.
In addition ALL city tiles on all rings get the city culture added to the tile culture, so it's very hard to flip even the outer ring of a wonder-spammed city.
I agree creative is great for that (and Zara is even greater). It's not about the raw culture per turn, it's the race to the 3rd ring that counts.
Yes, and that's why creative is so great. You get to 100 culture before other traits have their culture buildings up and running. Well made overview, it seems correct, it's what I tried to say but it's hard to make sense at this time of the night. 
If the banana is in his 2nd ring then it is possible to get it, but I too don't think it's worth the risk. He has a head start and there's no way of knowing how many culture buildings he's got. We still have some turns left before escorts and the settler is ready as well. Lack of whipping also adds difficulty to obtaining culture quickly.
If the banana is in his 2nd ring then it is possible to get it, but I too don't think it's worth the risk. He has a head start and there's no way of knowing how many culture buildings he's got. We still have some turns left before escorts and the settler is ready as well. Lack of whipping also adds difficulty to obtaining culture quickly.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Got it.
Regarding gem/ivory city. Assuming Justinian doesn't get there first we could settle the tile directly between rice and ivory or the tile 1E which puts everything within first ring.
Going west might give us a chance of grabbing bananas eventually but we'd rack up close border penalties in the process.
Techwise if we're heading to the jungle we need IW asap. Gem city will be rather unhealthy and a net drain on our funds until we can start working its resource tiles. Locating iron (ideally within an existing BFC) would be a significant bonus.
Regarding gem/ivory city. Assuming Justinian doesn't get there first we could settle the tile directly between rice and ivory or the tile 1E which puts everything within first ring.
Going west might give us a chance of grabbing bananas eventually but we'd rack up close border penalties in the process.
Techwise if we're heading to the jungle we need IW asap. Gem city will be rather unhealthy and a net drain on our funds until we can start working its resource tiles. Locating iron (ideally within an existing BFC) would be a significant bonus.
Looking good, nice to have a spot that is both great for the city itself as for our empire as for blocking just.
Maybe we can squeeze in a Marble-city east? I know it's close to KK but we can have it coastal with cows + marble. And as soon as we OB with KK we can gift him calms or something.
I think finding toku is not that bad. Yes, they have +modifier, but as it seems, tokus only way to expand (after the land is settled) is via KK and I don't expect toku to show sense. Also, he'll fall back in tech as he simply builds too many units and his traits don't help him with economy.
If we get that gems city we should squeeze in IW before the ABC. You can probabely run 0% science until you see whether we can get that city. Otherwise IW makes no sense.
If we selfresearch IW, we get no WFYABTA but if we have none, the AI also won't forget we made deals so trading some techs early is ok I think.
Maybe we can squeeze in a Marble-city east? I know it's close to KK but we can have it coastal with cows + marble. And as soon as we OB with KK we can gift him calms or something.
I think finding toku is not that bad. Yes, they have +modifier, but as it seems, tokus only way to expand (after the land is settled) is via KK and I don't expect toku to show sense. Also, he'll fall back in tech as he simply builds too many units and his traits don't help him with economy.
If we get that gems city we should squeeze in IW before the ABC. You can probabely run 0% science until you see whether we can get that city. Otherwise IW makes no sense.
If we selfresearch IW, we get no WFYABTA but if we have none, the AI also won't forget we made deals so trading some techs early is ok I think.
Gem city will have enough health to get moving without IW (at least if it's placed 1 tile from the gems. It will be on fresh water and forests to chop, which is instantly +3 health and enough to nullify the jungle for now. I prefer researching alphabet and trade for IW, but they're both good options. If we settle there without IW we can just cottage that tile with a forest temporarily (and leave the other 2 for health). If we have sailing at the time it will probably be hooked up to our capital as well if we open borders with Justinian (river seems to end near his capital), so we don't need IW for the city to be productive, it just means we can work the gems earlier.
Another reason why I am strongly suggesting 1W of the southern gems:
- that southern riverside hill is surrounded by jungle and forest but still open, which means it has a strategic resource. There's a pretty big possibility that it could be iron, so grabbing it should be worthwhile instead of fighting for the bananas.
Another reason why I am strongly suggesting 1W of the southern gems:
- that southern riverside hill is surrounded by jungle and forest but still open, which means it has a strategic resource. There's a pretty big possibility that it could be iron, so grabbing it should be worthwhile instead of fighting for the bananas.
Melior Traiano
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 220
Should we also be concerned that a barb city can pop near the gems site? If the riverside hill does in fact have Iron, is there an increased chance of a barb city spawning nearby?
pigswill
fly (one day)
The debate about the precise location of city#3 is probably one for the next set. We've got barbs around and a defensive army of two warriors so that needs addressing in the first instance.
Probably complete worker in Athens then knock out a couple of warriors before starting on settler. Sparta builds warriors until horses are connected. Connecting Athens and Sparta asap is a good idea, probably by road.
Meanwhile research alphabet after writing.
Probably complete worker in Athens then knock out a couple of warriors before starting on settler. Sparta builds warriors until horses are connected. Connecting Athens and Sparta asap is a good idea, probably by road.
Meanwhile research alphabet after writing.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Played 15 turns up to 1400bc (T65).
T2. Sparta warrior>chariot.
T3. Athens worker>settler
T4. Roads built. Athens settler>chariot.
T5 Writing>alphabet.
T7. Athens chariot>char.
Stonehenge bidl.
T10. Sparta char>lib.
Athens char>settler.
T12. Warrior survives bwar in jungle.
T13 Athens settler>lib
T14. Char kills barcher nr Sparta. Char kills bwar nr Sparta.
Units: 4 warriors, 3 chariots, 3 workers.
Alphabet 14 turns (80%, -1gpt) (12 turns at 100% -5gpt).
We can open borders with Just and KK but haven't done so yet.
We've located Tokyo:
Justinian has indeed beaten us to the jungle:
T2. Sparta warrior>chariot.
T3. Athens worker>settler
T4. Roads built. Athens settler>chariot.
T5 Writing>alphabet.
T7. Athens chariot>char.
Stonehenge bidl.
T10. Sparta char>lib.
Athens char>settler.
T12. Warrior survives bwar in jungle.
T13 Athens settler>lib
T14. Char kills barcher nr Sparta. Char kills bwar nr Sparta.
Units: 4 warriors, 3 chariots, 3 workers.
Alphabet 14 turns (80%, -1gpt) (12 turns at 100% -5gpt).
We can open borders with Just and KK but haven't done so yet.
We've located Tokyo:
Justinian has indeed beaten us to the jungle:
@ byz city. As usual for the AI, one tile off the coast as well as one tile away from the river.We can't settle N of ivory so our gemscity will eiter be gems/dyes or not riverside. Gems/dyes loses the only food ressource as well as that potential iron. IMO we should settle E of Rice. It has also more production than that other city.
After that we should probabely settle a bocking spot more south so J doesn't get funny ideas.
... or we rush him
BTW KK + Tokus land doesn't look that tasty
Edit:Roster
Edit2: ungy is no longer on skip
Roster
Rusten
Olodune
Ungy
Pigswill - just played
Mystyfly - up now
Melior - on deck
Silverbullet
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