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Updated AND 2.1 Mega Civ Pack

Discussion in 'Modmods, add-ons and scenarios' started by Maska_zgz, Feb 18, 2014.

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  1. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Personally I'd settle for just a tad bit more diversity in the modern era. I mean, as you said you want to tell an english axeman from a Chinese one. So why not an english IFV from a Chinese one? I don't think having 12 different versions of modern units would be too much, especially since half of them would probably be just retextures of the same model. Would it?
     
  2. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    For the record I'd be totally ok with doing it my self. I just need permission (or at least confirmation that it won't break things) and you to tell me which 12 groups it is (an example civ works just as well). Basically the later is just so I know for which civs to generate a test world to check which units are missing.
     
  3. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Actually, there are 23 art styles in the mod currently. 12 is the ideal that I think the number can be reduced to.

    This is the current list. I got it out of CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml.
    Spoiler List of art styles :

    • AFRICAN [covers Ethiopia, Mali, Zulu]
    • AMERICAN
    • ARABIA
    • ASIAN [covers Korea only]
    • BABYLON [also Assyria, Hittite, Sumer]
    • BARBARIAN
    • CARTHAGE
    • CHINA
    • DUTCH
    • ENGLAND [also Celt]
    • EUROPEAN [covers Spain, Portugal]
    • FRANCE
    • GERMAN [also Holy Roman Empire]
    • GRECO_ROMAN [just Greece]
    • INDIA [also Khmer, Siam]
    • JAPAN
    • MIDDLE_EAST [covers Egypt, Ottomans, Persia]
    • MONGOL
    • NATIVE_AMERICA [also Iroquois]
    • ROME [also Byzantine]
    • RUSSIA
    • SOUTH_AMERICA [covers Aztec, Inca, Maya]
    • VIKING


    I have a spreadsheet that lists by unit class the art styles that are already in use. I attached it as a txt file, but if you change it to a CSV or just open it with any spreadsheet program, it should work. It might be a little out of date. I hadn't looked at it since before I unified the Roman and Byzantine styles. I did correct those, but there may be some others left. Also, you may have to translate some of the unit class names to what's actually displayed in-game. For example, UNITCLASS_TURN is the now-deactivated Y.A.M.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Thanks, will get right on it. I am basically going to crack open the VD installation I have and pick some of the units from there if that's ok with you. Will give full credit to the creators of course. Also will start with the modern units first simply because I care for those most.

    Also, which 12 are the core ones you want to reduce it to eventually? I could focus on those.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  5. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    My choice of unit palettes would be:
    • Northern European: America, Celts, England, Viking
    • Western European: France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain
    • Eastern European: Germany, HRE, Russia?
    • Classical Mediterranean: Byzantine, Carthage, Greece, Rome
    • Ancient Middle East/"Cradle of Civilization": Assyria, Babylon, Hatti, Sumeria
    • Later Middle East: Arabia, Egypt, Ottoman, Persia
    • Africa: Ethiopia, Mali, Zulu
    • East Asia: China, Japan, Korea, Mongolia?
    • South Asia: India, Khmer, Siam
    • North America: Iroquois, Sioux
    • South America: Aztec, Inca, Maya
    and then if you want a 12th:
    • Steppe: Barbarian, Mongolia, Russia
    So American and Viking would be merged with England, Arabia merged into Middle East, Dutch and French merged with European, China and Japan merged with Asia, Carthage merged with Rome, Mongol and Barbarian merged with Russia.

    Egypt and Viking are each somewhat of a wild card. I could see merging Egypt into either Middle East style and Viking could be Northern or Eastern European.

    I'd be more interested in first filling out the ranks of the human units before moving onto the mechanical. For example, there isn't an African Heavy Pikeman in the unit roster.
     
  6. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    Just wonder...
    It's on my to do list but changing that limit breaks compatiblity with scenarios. If you play with a 100 civs dll, you can't use any pre-made scenario, you need to update each one. And if you go back using the 50 civs dll, you can't use any updated-100-civs-scenario.
    So until I found a different solution, I leave things as they are. Or until I decide that 100 civ is better and we scrap every 50 civs related part of the mod.
     
  7. Cor'e =)

    Cor'e =) Chieftain

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    Is this a MCP or AND2 error? (Danish Queendom). Capture.PNG
     
  8. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    It's an MCP problem. The Denmark art style has an alternate Catapult art that uses the Siege Ram artwork. It's probably been there since before I put the Ram units into AND. It's only an art definition, not a UU.

    I would suggest removing the Catapult from the Denmark_CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml file and removing the catapult art definition from Denmark_CIV4ArtDefines_Unit.xml.
     
  9. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I only mentioned 12 because you did initially. This said, looking at those you listed I honestly think that it would make the game far too bland.

    Like, to you it might sound like a good idea to homogenize things like Germany and Russia or the various ancient civilizations. But there are those of us who like picking exactly those combinations for our games for roleplay reasons. Like, my very first game of AND was based off just having the "cradle of history" civs. So I had like X types of Greeks and Akkad and Egypt and all those kinds of civs in my game. And under such circumstances it would get massively annoying to have all of those packed together because it would be a game with just 1 art style as opposed to the 4+ that it's now.

    I imagine that scenario is not really something you considered. And I do those a lot. And I imagine I am not the only one.

    It basically all depends on how much you care about visual diversity, and some of us do way more than others. And I don't think that it's a stretch to say that I would not have started this discussion if I was not very much in the more camp.

    So yea, looking at it I think you are way, way, way, way better off with the 20something that are in the game now. At least for the version that goes with the megapack. For the base mod it's not so big of an issue simply because you can't really do RP games like that.


    Thing is, mechanical units are easy. It's basically just pick and arrange. Next in line in terms of difficulty would be missionaries and corporate execs and workers and such where all I have to do is reskin. And than stuff where I'd have to find niche models or worse make my own (I have done it, not easy). So I figure I'll move from easy to hard.

    Also I'll try and just make it a module that you can plug into the game proper so you don't have to worry too much about synchronization and stuff.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  10. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I just prefer to hold back as much as I can to make room under the mod's memory limit for projects like MCP. I have modmod ideas too, and I don't want to make them impossible because the original mod is too complex to begin with. Put in enough stuff and the mod WILL fail.

    You're free to do what you want, but I'm looking for the places when I can improve efficiency. The styles that only work with one civilization and only have a handful of units seem like a waste to me. A style that can be used by three civilizations is far more appealing.
     
  11. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I understand what you mean. But there comes a point where you have to ask your self if you are sacrificing way too much. And I would say that this is one of those moments.

    Bottom line is that if you have Germany vs Russia fighting WW2 and their tanks look the same it's just wrong. The same can be said if you are fighting Greece vs Rome vs Persia and it's all generic spearmen and archers.

    Either way though, ideally once this is done (and it will take a long, long while) it would be something you can just apply as a module over top the MCP and not something that need terribly worry you. Assuming I can get it to work that way.


    ================================================================
    This said, if you do want to look for optimizations I would suggest that instead of looking at styles just as individuals you look at them as both as individuals and as combinations.

    Basically both individual civilizations and various combinations of them all have their heyday where they need to be recognizable visually. And it's these you need to hit. Outside of them you really don't have to worry that much and can merge them where it is appropriate.

    For example Greece, Egypt, Rome, Persia and the other related civs need to look very different in the bronze and iron age because that is when they mattered individually and when their iconic interactions happened.

    Same thing applies to the major powers during WW2, France (from the rest of Europe) during the Napoleonic wars or Japan during the era of the Samurai.

    But at the same time you can easily have all European civilizations from Russia to Spain use the same model for virtually everything medieval. Your Greek heavy pikeman really does not need to look distinct from a Roman or Gallic one. What he needs to be is distinct from a Muslim one because of the Crusades.

    Basically identify key roleplay eras for each individual base civ and group combos and focus on those. And than you can merge things thematically or geographically or how ever you feel is appropriate outside of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  12. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    THX. Will look after it.
    I like it but with a bit suggestion:
    • Germany to Northern Europe
    • HRE to Western Europe
    • Russia could have a separate "Slavic" one (in MCP there are a lot of Slavic civs that could use the same)
    • Mongolia could have a separate "Steppe" one (in MCP there are a lot of steppe civs that could use the same)
    • I'd really like Egypt to have a separate style, at least till the end of the medieval era (MCP has Nubia too)
    That's 14. Do you think that would be still safe?
    I want every MCP civ to fit into one of those.
     
  13. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    @Vokarya

    As going through the MCP UBs and UUs I noticed as if the German UB wasn't updated to your last building chain changes. Please, check it.
     
  14. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    *sigh* I understand that you people are aiming for a less is more approach here. But I seriously have to question the validity of that sort of thing in a mod whose entire purpose is to allow you to slowly immerse your self in every era. If you make the epic conflicts of history all look bland because medieval China and the Mongols or WW2 Germany and England or god forbid Greece and Persia look the same you are creating the opposite effect. I know that to me that would literally be a moment to stop and ask why even bother. I would literally be happier with no diversity than with historically messed up diversity.

    If you really want to commit to a massive soul crushing cutting of unit diversity I would suggest you at least do it based off historicity and not geography. Like, keep the categories you have and than apply selective overlap by having them only point to unique nifs when needed. Most groups would only need something like 1 to 2 eras worth of unique units and it would look better than merging Germany and the Soviet Union just because they are east of England. I can make you a chart to show what I mean.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  15. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    And to make a playable mod.
    Just look at C2C. It tries to be EVERYTHING. Too big, too slow.
    I'm sure Vokarya will be reasonable here to find the best fits.
     
  16. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Thing is AND is quite playable as it is.

    All I am saying is that if you want to cut down the number of units at least you should be aiming for some sort of historicity as your guideline as opposed to blind geography because blind geography gets rid of the granularity needed in certain ages.

    Here is that chart I mentioned I'd make to illustrate my point. It basically shows the historical development of those original 20 something culture groups you have right now in relation to one another until the modern day with absolutely every single thing that can be cut away having been cut away.

    History.png

    Mind you, this is massively, massively cut down. Right down to the bone to the point where I would not enjoy playing the game if it was this bland looking. But it illustrates my point by showing the relevant historical highlights.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  17. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I said this was what I wanted to happen, not that I necessarily would implement. Most of the removals that I actually have done were to handle closely-related civilizations; Celtic is very close to ancient England, HRE is medieval Germany, and I don't think there is any easy way to tell Assyria apart from Babylon. I think Ethiopia and Spain were only one unit apart from generic African/generic European, so I slashed the one unit and deleted the styles.

    But some styles seem like they are just too narrow. Currently for example, the Mongol style. Mongolia gets exactly four units that are not the same as the Asian style: the Keshik, which is a UU and thus bypasses the whole system, and then Archer, Javelineer, and Mounted Infantry. Now maybe that Archer could work in the Russian style: its actual name is ARCHER_EURASIAN. I haven't looked at it to check.

    Egypt has never had a style of its own; it's always been Middle East. I looked back at a very old RoM and it had the Middle East style then.
     
  18. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Either way, I feel like I've made my case and thus you have something to take into account in the future. Now it's time for me to wait and see what you do with it.
     
  19. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Denmark UB change

    I want to change the Danish UB - Manor House - for many reasons:
    • there is already a Manor, it's a civic building
    • it's not enough Danish, too general
    • it's a Castle replacement and we already have a lot of different Castles
    I want to replace it with Hof from RI:
    Civ4ScreenShot0867.JPG

    Hof would be:
    • replace Ceremonial Altar (without upgrading to Temples)
    • +1Xp to Wooden ships
    Any pbjections?
     
  20. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I know you want to do something viking inspired but since the game already has their entire religion in it does having a secular and yet lore vise religious building really make sense? I mean, basically you want this to replace the generic pagan temple but at the same time the game has already elevated it's parent religion out of the realm of generic paganism. In fact, all major pagan faiths have been lifted from there so that might actually be something to think about and get rid of the pagan temple in general. But like... complicated. My thoughts are complicated.
     
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