US and British take action!

[Mikoyan]

Goddammit! You are'nt getting anything are you? I AM NOT DEFENDING ANYONE IN THIS MATTER!!!!!!!
Bin Laden is an ******* and should be brought to justice, just because i ain't going with all this 'god-bless-america-yankee-doodle-doo-we-should-nuke-innocents-we-should-take-out-blood-revenge-on-the-afghans-bull****' doesn't mean i support that vicious killer! Everyone has a right to live!!!!!!!!!!! Not only americans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[G-Man]

Can you please answer my questions?

 

[Sid]

Gee, it doesn't get this heated over in the SMAC/AX forums! Then, I 'spose we're all taking out our aggression in a fantasy world and you folks are talking about a reality and projections for the future.

If you think this is all about terrorism, I disagree. Read Samuel Huntingdon's 1993 article in 'Foreign Affairs' journal to see a prediction of "a clash of ciivilizations" (also the title of his article). Of the six billion people on Earth, about one third disagree with the belief/life system which we could call 'western culture.' For religious and economic reasons, a portion of that third are against the USA because it represents the best and worst of free market capitalism and liberal democracy. (Notice how you read that -- if you think it's obvious that capitalism and democracy are correct, then, like Silvio Berlosconi, you may feel superior to other belief/life systems such as Islam. And then Houston, we have a problem.)

A bit more detail: militant Shia Muslims believe that one of their (8th or 9th Century) Imams will return as a mahdi or Hidden Iman who will preside over a 'reign of justice' towards the end of the world (the Last Day). It doesn't take much to realise that some muslims may view Osama bin Laden (or his spiritual director, Mullah Omar) as a 'hidden iman' and that it will take more than righteousness to combat the ideas that he represents.

I am in agreement with both humanitarian and military efforts to 'correct' the problems in Afghanistan. I think we have to go beyond the boundaries of national sovereignty on this occasion to deny the sanctuary that Al Quaeda have established. It will require a deft touch to manage the several million refugees that are being created right now: by fear of US military action; and through incompetency by the Taliban.

On a 'civ' note, it will be interesting to see how the Firaxis developers churn out a game in Civ3 that portrays the 'clash of civilisations' satisfactorily (put your own interpretation on the 's' word).

 

[Graeme the mad]

Joespaniel:
Ok - I think id better clarify your views (though that means doing some writing)

Yes the people responsible for what happend on September the elventh should be dealt with. However this does not mean going in there, killing everyone, and getting out again (not something I think will happen but people I know and people on this site seem to be suggesting it as a good idea)

I actually think that the Taliban should have been overthroen along time ago by NATO and some form of Democracy installed (this goes for a lot of other cpountries) however the practical arguments against this mean it is unlikely to happen.

I do not have much sympathy with the people who commited these acts, but see that the fanaticism with which these people are being tracked down now as part of the western worlds hypocrisy. United states says JUstice and Liberty for all, and it is at a time like this when we see what they really mean is Justice and Liberty for all united states citizens (not exactly true either but I'll leave it)

I think a military attack is the only way, but it has come too late and I feel sorry for every innocent Afghan killed because of this and most of the soldiers too.
You say you were a soldier: this means you obey your orders: be they moral or unmoral, and I do understnad that in the heat of the battle morality can not really come in to it. It is not the soldiers fault.

Now ive ranted, sorry I hope you get some idea of what I want to say, Im very bad at expressing things eloquently.
(what name did I call you by the way?)

Mikoyan: I have to agree with G-Man and Joe, you are very nieve -g-man has said why for me (what was the need of that abuse though floppa?)
It is okay to wish for world *peace* as you call it but just realise it is not possible

 

[Mikoyan]

Look, you odious gargoyle, i don't consider murdering people is a good idea at all, even if they are brainwashed, which thay might be, since their leaders has promised the a glorious afterlife in paradise or something like that, seeing all this through a humanistic point of view, what would you say? I mean without slaughtering these people?

And sorry, Graeme, what was that again?

 

[G-Man]

I don't see any other way but killing most of them. The US cannot afford to have them out there and it cannot capture all of them, and so, despite the fact that I don't like it, the only way is to kill them. But it won't be "slaughtering" them, it will be fighting with them. It's an army that wull never surrender. And when fighting an army you can't think about the other side - you first of all gotta think about yourself. The American goverment can't risk millions of Americans by allowing these terrorists to stay free.

PS
It's 1:15 AM here so I'm going to get some sleep

 

[Mikoyan]

Well, as long as they are killed in battle (Jar-Head to Jar-Head)
i guess that is acceptable, as long as they are'nt killed by a hydrogen bomb.
And as long as no over-emotional group of G.I Joes start massacering villages. And as long as the taliban government is overthrown and replaced by a people- elected president.

Some sleep sure sounds good to me too...............

 

[joespaniel]

To Grahme- Your a cool guy so dont worry about it.

BTW you called me an idiot in a fit of rage .

Sorry if I run alittle hot right now, emotion causes rational people to do or say things they normaly would not.

I am in complete agreement with you that no more innocents need to be harmed. I posted on the "what should we do" topic yesterday, check it out. People who rant about nuking countries dont know what they are talking about, and dont represent mainstream Americans. This is a real "Tom Clancy" covert kind of op with spies, police, special forces and smart bombs. The US is not going to occupy Afghanistan, or bomb its cities. It may even go on for years, its like finding a needle in a haystack.

But I was very proud of your Prime Minister for coming in our hour of need, so to speak. Thanks to all the limies!

I am a veteran, and I am for peace. Real peace has to be fought for some times. I know that sounds cliche and lame, buts its really true in this context.

Imagine what the US would do if New York was hit with an atomic bomb smuggled aboard a ship, Chicago gassed with dozens of biological agents and San Francisco's Trans America building blown up with a truck bomb. I think it would be WW3.

That is the worst case scenario, I know, but this has got to stop NOW. So send support to our troops overseas, believe me I know how encouraging it is, and hope the coalition is successful.

Thanks for the spirited debate! :slay:

Peace- Joespaniel

 

[SunTzu]

Yes 14 year olds everywhere are jackasses and think they know everything. What in the **** do you think we should do to the terrorist?! Wait till they use nuclear,chemical or biological weapons on us!? You stupid ignorant *****! There's already proof that they're planning on using Chemical or Biological weapons by learning how to fly CropDusters!
So shut your ****ing mouth up!

 

[dreadhead7]

Somehow, I think that trying to get through to Miko is a waste of precious energy. He is very young, and stuck in his views. He'll have to live a lot longer, and get through the school of Hard Knocks and Reality. Maybe then, he'll figure it out.

 

[Mikoyan]

SunTzu: Go to hell, you war-loving george-bushian!CROPDUSTERS!!!!?????? Can't you like, shoot those down with an arcade gun?
And look at your posts, you curse way too much to be an adult yourself.

 

[Juize]

Miko ("Juize II"): "And i will now vomit because these
words of patriotism 'god bless america' is disgusting if anything"

Tooo true. But even I wasn't as offensive as Miko. He should take I brake.
I understand he completely, but by his offensive posts against you his crushing his
own words. In short words, He's telling you how to live, but not living that way.
Btw, SunTzu is a person who has fallen into a 'god bless america' -fanaticsm.
He's as worse as 'god **** america' -fanatics.
Beware not to be like him--- fanaticsm will bring nothing but wars & blood.

 

[Mikoyan]

Juize: I would have been a bit nicer if they hadn't abused me to begin with

 

[G-Man]

I think I missed something while sleeping... Since when being a patriot is considerd to be fanaticism?

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by G-Man
I think I missed something while sleeping... Since when being a patriot is considerd to be fanaticism?

Good question. That depends of the style of patriotism.
But realisticly, for me, altough I'm just a small kid,
It looks like the 'praise the lord' -style of taleban is exactly like 'praise the america' -style of US.

Hmm, after reading more on this topic, I have seen only 2 completely out of fanaticsm/patriotism/whatever:
Dreadhead7 (strange name) and
Graeme the Mad.

 

[G-Man]

So anyone who has different opinions then yours is a fanatic?

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by G-Man
So anyone who has different opinions then yours is a fanatic?

No. You understand what I mean. Or at least I hope so, because I'm not good enough in
english to explain. Killing people isn't gonna solve anything.
Now, to the earlier discussions:..

The only reason why murderer like mr. Usama is in power in Afganistan, is
because of fear of US. By going there and killing people, the US
will do nothing but show that Taleban is right. Because terrorist organizations
such as Taleban say that US is full of murderous scum who want to kill people.
If US goes to there, it looks like (to the local people) that the Taleban is right,
And it will get millions and millions of joined people (engrish?), who believe that (if dead)
Usama is a martyr. By going there, USA fights against itself.
USA should get Usama (and proofs) to Afgan court. The afgans are justicifial if USofA is.

 

[Mikoyan]

Juize: Good explanation, i've been trying to get theat out myself!

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Mikoyan
Juize: Good explanation, i've been trying to get theat out myself!

Stop that, they're starting to believe that u are me and I am u.
(seriosly, I would start :crazyeyes

 

[G-Man]

I have one word for you - Iran. Iran was once a rich country with equall laws and with great support from the US. But the fanatics hated the US despite the fact that they helped them. And when the revoulution happened they burned US flags. And they supported and still support anti-American terror orgenizations. Bin Laden is in power because there are a lot of muslims that believe that the world should be ruled by Islam. And they will fight the US untill all of it's citiezens are either dead or muslim.

And even if you can somehow convince the Taliban to put Bin Laden on trial, they'll never convict a muslim because of what non-muslims are saying - and all information about Bin Laden comes from foreign agents inside his orgenization. And even if Bin Laden is convicted, do you think Al Qaida will stop working?