US Warrant officers ?

[otago]

Why does the US have Warrant officers, and strangely commissioned Warrant officers at that ?
Is there any job in the military that is done by a Warrant officer that could not be done by a senior NCO ?
Would a US WO2 expect to be saluted by a Brit. RSM holding the rank of WO1 ?
What happens when a US Warrant officer goes say to Britain, do they join the officers mess, or the Sargeants and Warrant officers mess ?
Oh, Brit and other Commonwealth warrant officers are not saluted, not if you want to keep your arm attached that is.

 

[woody60707]

lol. ok yes...???

 

[bhsup]

My brother is a CW4. He is an Apache pilot, which an NCO would not be allowed to do, afaik. I remmember when I was in the corps, we saluted WOs. I'm not sure if the army requires it or not.

Regarding whether they would be or expect to be saluted in an environment such as you put forth, I would say they probably go with whatever the requirements are for the service they are visiting.

So if a US Marine salutes a Commonwealth WO on a US Marine base and the WO breaks the Marines arm (HA! As if he could...), the Commonwealth WO would be in the wrong.

 

[Bugfatty300]

British military personnel must prostrate themselves before US personnel regardless of rank.

 

[MobBoss]

Why does the US have Warrant officers, and strangely commissioned Warrant officers at that ?

Warrant officers are technical experts in their particular fields....they are not typically leadership positions in the same vein as other commissioned officer billets are.

Is there any job in the military that is done by a Warrant officer that could not be done by a senior NCO ?

In many cases, yes, especially when their isnt a warrant officer to fill a vacant slot.

Would a US WO2 expect to be saluted by a Brit. RSM holding the rank of WO1 ?

Probably not. Most warrants in the Army arent so wrapped around the being saluted thing....probably because a good majority of them are former NCOs. They would almost rather be 'one of the guys'.

Between warrants of different nations, its not always clear that one particlar rank may indeed outrank another. The rule of thumb is usually, if you are not sure then salute anyway. But in the case you describe, I dont think the US warrant would expect it even if he were entitled to it.

What happens when a US Warrant officer goes say to Britain, do they join the officers mess, or the Sargeants and Warrant officers mess ?

Unsure. I know here in the USA, warrants are usually welcomed both by officers and enlisted.

Oh, Brit and other Commonwealth warrant officers are not saluted, not if you want to keep your arm attached that is.

By regulation, enlisted are indeed supposed to salute warrants in the US military, but like I said, its not always encouraged by a lot of warrants.

My brother is a CW4. He is an Apache pilot, which an NCO would not be allowed to do, afaik. I remmember when I was in the corps, we saluted WOs. I'm not sure if the army requires it or not.

Enlisted pilots went out of phase about 20 years ago. Scout Observer NCOs flying 2nd seat in an OH-58 used to be able to get stick time just in case something happened to the pilot, but that hasnt been the case in about 2 decades.

 

[otago]

Warrant officers are technical experts in their particular fields....they are not typically leadership positions in the same vein as other commissioned officer billets are.



In many cases, yes, especially when their isnt a warrant officer to fill a vacant slot.



Probably not. Most warrants in the Army arent so wrapped around the being saluted thing....probably because a good majority of them are former NCOs. They would almost rather be 'one of the guys'.

Between warrants of different nations, its not always clear that one particlar rank may indeed outrank another. The rule of thumb is usually, if you are not sure then salute anyway. But in the case you describe, I dont think the US warrant would expect it even if he were entitled to it.



Unsure. I know here in the USA, warrants are usually welcomed both by officers and enlisted.



By regulation, enlisted are indeed supposed to salute warrants in the US military, but like I said, its not always encouraged by a lot of warrants.



Enlisted pilots went out of phase about 20 years ago. Scout Observer NCOs flying 2nd seat in an OH-58 used to be able to get stick time just in case something happened to the pilot, but that hasnt been the case in about 2 decades.

Different strokes, The Brit army use Staff Sargeants as Apache helicopter pilots, want the job done right ,use a NCO
Same as the technical jobs, either a Staff or a Warrant officer, who hold a Warrant only.

 

[otago]

My brother is a CW4. He is an Apache pilot, which an NCO would not be allowed to do, afaik. I remmember when I was in the corps, we saluted WOs. I'm not sure if the army requires it or not.

Regarding whether they would be or expect to be saluted in an environment such as you put forth, I would say they probably go with whatever the requirements are for the service they are visiting.

So if a US Marine salutes a Commonwealth WO on a US Marine base and the WO breaks the Marines arm (HA! As if he could...), the Commonwealth WO would be in the wrong.

Funny that, when I first joined up when the Romans ruled, we were told to salute all officers holding the Queens Commission, but as a courtesy to salute officers from those countries where she did not reign.
Or as the RSM put it, including those damn rebels from a part of North America.
A RSM wrong, a RSM is never wrong, if he is wrong ,army regulations need changing

 

[GoodGame]

Helicopters (expensive vehicles requiring lots of training to operate, but arguably not as complicated as airplanes) are the number reason for the WO rank.

My brother is a CW4. He is an Apache pilot, which an NCO would not be allowed to do, afaik. I remmember when I was in the corps, we saluted WOs. I'm not sure if the army requires it or not.

Regarding whether they would be or expect to be saluted in an environment such as you put forth, I would say they probably go with whatever the requirements are for the service they are visiting.

 

[Cutlass]

Helicopters (expensive vehicles requiring lots of training to operate, but arguably not as complicated as airplanes) are the number reason for the WO rank.

I was under the impression that helicopters were considered more difficult than fixed wing aircraft to fly.

 

[GoodGame]

Maybe in a computer game. Consider the unit cost of a modern airplane F22 vs. an Apache-longbow. Or even an Apache-era airplane---F15. F22 is 3x as expensive as an Apache. So maybe the flight mechanics are easier on an airplane, but I bet the airplane pilots get schooled more as insurance.

 

[MobBoss]

Maybe in a computer game. Consider the unit cost of a modern airplane F22 vs. an Apache-longbow. Or even an Apache-era airplane---F15. F22 is 3x as expensive as an Apache. So maybe the flight mechanics are easier on an airplane, but I bet the airplane pilots get schooled more as insurance.

Cost isnt a very good indicator of flight difficulty. Sometimes more cost is involved in order to actually make a plane easier to fly.

Fwiw, I am pretty sure most pilots would consider helicopters more difficult to fly for the simple reason you have more axis movement to worry about while in the air. More to keep track of and be aware of.

 

[GoodGame]

My point wasn't that. It was that cost should equal importance which should be a good indicator of how well schooled the pilot should logically be in order to protect the investment of the expensive airframe. So even if a helo is more challenging in basic mechanics, a fighter jet is a more valued role = more expensive = bigger national investment.

FWIW, a fighter jet flies at a much much faster speed and probably has a more complicated tactical environment to monitor. On top of that, it safeguards the helo's airspace.

Cost isnt a very good indicator of flight difficulty. Sometimes more cost is involved in order to actually make a plane easier to fly.

Fwiw, I am pretty sure most pilots would consider helicopters more difficult to fly for the simple reason you have more axis movement to worry about while in the air. More to keep track of and be aware of.

 

[MobBoss]

My point wasn't that. It was that cost should equal importance which should be a good indicator of how well schooled the pilot should logically be in order to protect the investment of the expensive airframe. So even if a helo is more challenging in basic mechanics, a fighter jet is a more valued role = more expensive = bigger national investment.

FWIW, a fighter jet flies at a much much faster speed and probably has a more complicated tactical environment to monitor. On top of that, it safeguards the helo's airspace.

Good game, military pilots are requied to have flight minimums of stick/air time per training year in order to maintain currency in their assigned airframe. This training time has nothing to do with 'protecting the investment' per se as it does in maintaining a combat readiness and high training level in that particular airframe. Pilots are tested on this yearly in their flight evalutations.

As to your 'fwiw' you also forget that Helos often fly nap of the earth, in and out of obstacles that combat jet aircraft could in no way maneuver.

I spent over a decade in an Army Aviation Brigade and I have flown in every helicopter the army has with the exception of the Apache. I know just a little bit about it.

 

[Cutlass]

A fighter jet has the most carefully selected pilots because of the nature of the environment they face. But I still think it's more difficult to learn to fly an Apache than an F22.

 

[GoodGame]

Ok, so then why aren't helo pilots given Captain stripes?

EDIT: And is NOE protection against air to air missiles?

I spent over a decade in an Army Aviation Brigade and I have flown in every helicopter the army has with the exception of the Apache. I know just a little bit about it.

 

[Speedo]

Helicopters (expensive vehicles requiring lots of training to operate, but arguably not as complicated as airplanes) are the number reason for the WO rank.

There is no comparison whatsoever between flying helo's and flying fixed wing aircraft. If you don't want to believe it, just look up the accident rates for helos vs all other aircraft.

There is no particular reason that the USAF/USN require pilots to be officers other than typical administrative reasoning that officer = smart.

It should also be noted that in years past (WW2) enlisted/warrant pilots were heavily used, and in fact the USN is currently doing a trial program to bring back warrant pilots.

 

[Speedo]

EDIT: And is NOE protection against air to air missiles?

Nap of the Earth is for general avoidance when used by helos. Done properly you're low enough that you're very difficult to detect by airborne radar (by being lost in ground clutter or by simply blocking LOS). You can also avoid many ground-based radars by being in blind spots (particularly against mobile sets), and naturally it's hard for guys on the ground to shoot at you when there's a hill in the way.

As for A2A missiles - a helo's primary defence is keeping one from being fired at it in the first place. If that happens, they mostly have to rely on their countermeasures unless there's some nearby cover to duck behind.

 

[Cutlass]

Ok, so then why aren't helo pilots given Captain stripes?

Prestige. And possibly because fixed wing aircraft are operated by the Air Force and Navy while helicopters are far more important to the Army and Marines.

 

[MobBoss]

Ok, so then why aren't helo pilots given Captain stripes?

Some are. WOs and other Officers fly Army Helos.

It helps knowing what you are talking about.

And yes, NOE is indeed protection. Mostly against detection, but flying NOE makes them much harder to hit, by both missiles and small arms fire/AA fire.

Edit: What speedo said.

@Cutlass. The Air Force and Navy also have significant helicopter assets.

 

[Cutlass]

Some are. WOs and other Officers fly Army Helos.

It helps knowing what you are talking about.

And yes, NOE is indeed protection. Mostly against detection, but flying NOE makes them much harder to hit, by both missiles and small arms fire/AA fire.

Edit: What speedo said.

@Cutlass. The Air Force and Navy also have significant helicopter assets.

I am aware of that. But it's not where the prestige is.