USA Constitution and 1st Amendment (questions).

[Elrohir]

Don't you think this is just wrong?

Not at all. Wouldn't you expect a politician to act according to his political beliefs, while in office? Why then should he be forced to not follow his religious beliefs, and consult them in making decisions? If you don't like that the local minister, Billy Bob, will read the Bible and pray before going to the Town Council meeting, then vote for someone else. That's your right - and it's his right to do so also.

That goes for anyone, Christan, Jew, Muslim, whatever. If you think their particular theological beliefs would make them a bad leader, then don't vote for them, it's really that simple. But trying to get them to not follow them is doomed to failure, not to mention wrong.

 

[Yeeek]

Eheh, this is getting complicated for my very little mind I'm not a religious person, but lets say i am one and of, the Indu religion. I am a US citizen, and politics in my country often claim things from the bible or other christian values. Also openly use those very same Christian Values and apply them (or would like to) to their politic agenda.

But, there is no state religion and sould never be one as written in the constitution. This is where i can't draw line between the constitution and shall i say american's way of life.

 

[Elrohir]

Eheh, this is getting complicated for my very little mind I'm not a religious person, but lets say i am one and of, the Indu religion. I am a US citizen, and politics in my country often claim things from the bible or other christian values. Also openly use those very same Christian Values and apply them (or would like to) to their politic agenda.

But, there is no state religion and sould never be one as written in the constitution. This is where i can't draw line between the constitution and shall i say american's way of life.

There isn't a State Religion in the US, either. (Although something like 90% of America says it's Christian) But I don't see anything wrong in allowing politicians to use their faith in their jobs - if you don't want them doing that, vote for an athiest.

 

[Yeeek]

I know there isn't a state religion, i thought the example i gave was pretty clear. Guess i was wrong. But why should i vote for an atheist? As a matter of fact why should i even care for his religious belief, as it shouldn't interfer in his policies. Or should it? I mean, as a US citizen, does religion, Christianity in this case matter that much?

I'm really trying hard to understand, how, why, religion matter that much in a democracy. I think it shouldn't. As masquerouge, said i believe it should only matter in your private sphere.

 

[volta]

God Bless America has been said by most US presidents, it's not a new thing. Religion was very important in the founding of America.

In Public School, there is no prayer of any such kind. There are infamous cases of kids getting in trouble for praying.

That's not really true that there is no prayer at public schools. I'm sure it depends where you are but in Oklahoma there is definately a religion in school.

At my school the football team (I'm not sure about the other sports but I bet some do) prays before and after games. At a school soccer banquet someone said grace before we ate, this was also done when there were team dinners before games. They also have FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) at my school. I never went to any of the meetings but I don't see how it couldn't be religious.

It's not only sports either. Every day after the pledge, there was a moment of silence to pray. For a while students used to gather in the hall and pray during lunch. There was a guy who was frequently at the school getting kids to go to his church's youth group.

There were other times (memorials for students who had died, etc.) I won't mention but I think it's clear that public schools like mine aren't free of prayer.

 

[Yeeek]

Ok, but then what about students who are not christians, how does it work them?

Also, if you are not religious are you forced (maybe the word isn't appropriate, perhaps strongly invited) to attend to those?

 

[Souron]

Hello CFC'ers. To be more precise, my question is reguarding the Establishment of Religions in the 1st Amendment of the USA's Constitution. Because i'm curious and I believe this is will help me to better understand Americans.

Before starting, you may be wondering why this is bugging me. I am French, therefor the principle of Laicity, separation between the state and church are part of the French Constitution and i dare to say its backbone. I cherish these values and also believe it is what make me love the Republic and its revolutionnaire heritage.

I understand why foreigners were shocked/did not understand when they heared headscarf were banned in public school. For the same reason i am shocked to hear a US President making a relation between God and his country. For instance, the simple words, God Bless America would be shocking everyone here if our President would use that phrase.

Now the question, the term laicity is not used anywhere in the Constitution but in the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, it does basically says the same thing as would the principle of laicity. Why then, Religion is so important in US politics.

FYI: I'm actully reading With God On Their Side : George W. Bush And The Christian Right by Esther Kaplan. Quite alarming. Whats your take on GWB on this matter?

The Founding Fathers wanted to keep religios institutions seperate from the state. And their ammendment does that.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

But that does not prevent people from being religious. In fact, the president, who is compleatly unmentioned in the ammemdment, is free to be as religious as he wants.


While the Founding Fathers believed in seperation of church and state, I would not be surprised if some of today's conservatives, would support the removal of that clause. The United States has historically been a place of refuge for those seeking religious persicution. Today, I would say the United states is the most religious of first world nations. Thus it can be understood why a Christian president, seeking to spread God's Grace might apeal to many ammericans.

Also i'm wondering, if Religion has any impact in public school in the US? Prayers and the like. What about in the Army, or even at Work.

It varies from state to state, school to school but generally the supreme court has ruled that school prayer is not allowed. However, many states allow for a
moment of silence" in the morning or before lunch, who's primairy and historic purpose if prayer.

The army has no history of receint prayer that I know of. But I am reasonably certain that many historic generals did issuse a public prayer before or after a battle.

Re work: It is illegal to discriminate employment on the basis of religion, but not every manager agrees with that law. It is illegal to ask "how often do you go to church?", but if it happends, there is no easy way to turn the guy in. And there are also sly legal ways of asking the question like "would you be avalible to work on sunday morning?". That said, most buisnesses care more about proffit then religion.

PS: Even durring the time of the founding fathers, many people disagreed with that clause. Lucky for us, they were not in power.

 

[Norlamand]

I know there isn't a state religion, i thought the example i gave was pretty clear. Guess i was wrong. But why should i vote for an atheist? As a matter of fact why should i even care for his religious belief, as it shouldn't interfer in his policies. Or should it? I mean, as a US citizen, does religion, Christianity in this case matter that much?

I'm really trying hard to understand, how, why, religion matter that much in a democracy. I think it shouldn't. As masquerouge, said i believe it should only matter in your private sphere.

The "separation clause" was inserted as a hedge against the type of religious requirements at that time used in England for certain government positions. The founders did not want membership in a particular religion to be a requirement for government service and the like. There clearly was no wish to exclude G-d or religious references from government or public schools. If they had intended to do so they would have left such references out of so many of the important documents of our founding.

 

[Souron]

On a related note, most people only site the founding fathers when it suits them. They don't actually share most of their beliefs.

I believe that the United States is an ever chaning nation, and that the constitution should be observed not because of the intention of the founding fathers, but for the betterment of the nation. Who cares about some old guys in wigs who do not have a clue about modern culture?

 

[aussieboy]

My school, which is state-run has rather active religious communities (for example, we have a eucumenical Christian Club, Active Catholics Organization, Muslim Student's Union), with some of the teachers acting as 'advisors'. However, it's not actually paid for or supported by the government. All the monies used to run the oragnizations are given by students within the organization as donations. No-one is forced to join, it's all voluntary. That is protected by the First Amendment.

It's only illegal if they make you join, or threaten you with consequences for not joining, or if it's government funded.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

Religion was very important in the founding of America.

The neutrality of religion is what shaped the United States.

Founding fathers weren't particulary religious:


The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion
John Adams

We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.
George Washington


Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
Thomas Paine

 

[aussieboy]

You are free to express your religious beliefs in public, like any other form of speech, in America. You are allowed to wear religiously-required attire at school or most government institutions for that matter. Nevertheless, many Americans are religious, perhaps due to their ability to spread in the public sphere. However, religion will not run America, and America will not run religion. Religion is considered a matter of individual conscience. Thus we see a Methodist president (GWB) appoint a Catholic Chief Justice (John Roberts).

 

[volta]

Ok, but then what about students who are not christians, how does it work them?

Also, if you are not religious are you forced (maybe the word isn't appropriate, perhaps strongly invited) to attend to those?

No one is ever forced to do any of those things I mentioned. Most of the things are organized by students and only people that want to participate in them. I know people who are Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, and some atheists/agnostics and none of them were offended by how these things were done. No one is forced to pray, but it they do have the option if they want to.

 

[Methos]

One interesting note: for a while (decades IIRC) after the 1st amendment was passed, many states had official religions, which were perfectly legal until SCOTUS struck it down. At the time, the 1st amendment was supposed to stop a national church and only a national church..

Yes, you are essentially correct. As is clear, the 1st Amendment says "Congress shall pass no law..." This also applied to free speech issues as well. But the 14th Amendment affirmed that the federal govt. was the guarantor of civil rights, not the states, and thus, the 1st Amend was broadened in that sense.

True, but remember, up until the Civil War the states held the power in the US, not the national government. When the Constitution was written people still feared control from a central government, hence possibly the reason why the 1st Amendment states about establishing a religion. This IMO doesn't stop the states from establishing a state religion, and in fact didn't as history shows us.

Interesting note: During my Googling of this I came across the Wiki article on the First Amendment, and noted someone has edited it to say ‘Establish a State Religion’, check it out here. This is one of the reasons I don’t like using Wiki as a source.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I think it is interesting to study the (widely varying) religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers. But the important thing is not what they were but what they wanted. Freedom of religion, and separation of church and state, are vital. History has shown that keeping the church and the state too close is bad for both.

 

[Tulkas12]

America never got quite as paranoid to organized religion. We didn't have the catholic church and Louis XIV. We were generally found by religious exiles though, and as the law is there shall not be a state religion, we haven't such strict laws as France.

I do not think its abhorent for politicins to refer to God or anything, also I'd advise to remember waht you are reading. You are reading a book that means to be sensationalistic about Bush's religous beliefs, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[joycem10]

Re work: It is illegal to discriminate employment on the basis of religion, but not every manager agrees with that law. It is illegal to ask "how often do you go to church?", but if it happends, there is no easy way to turn the guy in. And there are also sly legal ways of asking the question like "would you be avalible to work on sunday morning?". That said, most buisnesses care more about proffit then religion.

Gotta disagree with you here the local Human Rights Commission or the EEOC takes charges related to religion discrimination/harassment all the time, mostly related to Muslims. They arent as numerous as race and sex based charges, but I'm sure its because harassment and race workplace is alot more of a hot button issue in corporate america.

 

[Souron]

True, the court process is a long one, and if you sue you can be sure that you won't get the job.

 

[Keshik]

Moderator Action: One more derogatory comment about 'liberals' and you are going to serve a long ban. You are welcome to argue against their beliefs, but that does not give you the right to call them names. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I understand the forums have rules to be followed, but I do enjoy the irony of this in a First Amendment thread!

Moderator Action: If you have something to say about a moderator's actions, PM that moderator privately. Public discussion of Moderator Actions is not allowed. Also (from the forum rules) "Your rights to Freedom of Speech don't apply here." --Padma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Keshik]

What I fail to comprehend is where the feds get off using the first amendment to force localities to remove crosses, menorah's, etc. from city property. It's really a stretch of federal power in my opinion, based on just reading the amendment. I guess that's why I would be considered an originalist.