Vatican Excommunicates new Chinese bishops

[Dann]

You're being disingenuous...

Maybe our goverment will use "Catholics=Vatican=Taiwan Independence Supporters" propaganda someday, in order to demonize Catholics. I foresee that worrying potential...

Not likely. The strategy today is divide and conquer, not push your enemies together.

 

[Uiler]

Throughout the millenia of Chinese history, religious groups have probably initiated 99% of popular rebellions. Most were associated with Taoist/Buddhist/animistic mixtures like the Falun Gong and Yellow Scarves. The Ming sect (Manichaeism) started the Yi Mu rebellion and led many rebellions during the Song dynasty. There are issues with Muslim groups. The Taiping rebellion which caused the deaths of millions was driven by someone who thought he was Jesus' brother. The Ming sect also helped the fight against the Yuan dynasty and many of the secret societies set up to fight against the Manchurians were closely associated with the Buddhist Shaolin temple. None of the religiously inspired rebellions succeeded but most of them severely weakened the government and allowed more secular groups to finish it off. Many other rebels like Sun Yat-Sen were Christians. I believe in S. Korea and Taiwan a lot of the people driving democracy are Christians. Throughout Chinese history religion has played a key role in destabilising governments. For a Chinese government to distrust religion they do not control is almost instinctive. Catholicism is even worse than the others as its central authority is the head of state of another country that has bad relations with China! One of the reasons for persecuting the Ming sect was because its central authority was in Persia.

The other thing is China is not the same as the West and the people do not think the same way. If the government allowed religious groups to flourish out of their control most ordinary Chinese would take it as a sign of weakness not strength. The rise of religious groups outside the control of the government is taken as one of the key signs by ordinary Chinese that the Mandate of Heaven is gone i.e. the current rulers are nearly finished. No-one is going to go, "Thanks" to the Communist Party. Instead everyone is going to go, "Hey the Communist Party is getting weaker. Time to take advantage! Let's start maneouvering and grab what we can of the spoils." Regional powerholders will be emboldened and start more openly defying the central government, officials and rich men will start factionalising in readiness for the coming conflict. Officials will gradually stop respecting central authority and start aligning with local powerholders. This is simply how Chinese think. If you don't think that differences in local thinking matter in responding to events think Iraq and the recent Palestinian elections. Remember, not everyone is a middle-class 20th century American.

In some ways traditional Chinese thinking about religion is more "free" than the traditional Western way. Basically Chinese don't care what your religion *is* as long as it has no political overtones. They don't care who your God is basically or what your Heaven is like. Do whatever you like. No-one is going to get you because your God is not the same as theirs. However once it obtains political overtones that oppose the government you're dead. Or judging by Chinese history the government is dead.

Besides, I think if there *is* freedom of religion in China, the results will not be to Westerner's liking. Why? Because the religion is most oppressed in China is the religion of the masses, which is superstition. The campaign against the Falun Gong or Christianity is nothing compared to the mass movement of the Communist party against what it sees as superstitious nonsense and devotion to old traditions like ancestor worship. In fact I think this is one of the few things Westerners applaud the Communists for doing! It's progress, it's modernisation! Expect to see a resurgence of astrologers persecuted by the Communists and raising of the ancestral temples razed by the Communists. Yet I never see this mentioned in the freedom of religion rants just Christianity which no-one in China really cares about. Actually you know this is one of the key problems I think that all the anti-Communist party people have esp. the Chinese ones and the reason why they have very little popular appeal. I have to yet a see a single one who appeals to the masses. They all try to act, speak and almost become Westerners. They are not talking to the Chinese people but to the Western media. They don't speak the language of the common Chinese but the language of the New York Times. No wonder no-one supports them. Yeah, Christianity, who in China gives a damn. No one cares. There are certain hot buttons for Chinese which you can use to provoke them into reacting and I've never seen a single anti-Communist guy who does use them. Anti-Communist activists have to be some of the most inept "revolutionaries" who have ever existed. To put it another way, no-one is going to be writing novels about their romantic but tragic struggle against the oppressive Communist Party. Might be because a lot of them seem to disdain Chinese culture and history and slavishly worship the West.

 

[Red Stranger]

Maybe they remember that the pope was partially responsible for bringing down the Soviet Empire?

The pope had no role in bringing down the Soviet Empire. The USSR lost because they couldn't beat the US economically, technologically or militarily. The USSR lost because communism is flawed.

As I said before, if China is worried about Vatican having so much influence, they should just try to spread Taoism in the Vatican. I'm sure they have the resources to do so.

 

[Zarn]

Uiler: If the Vatican and the PRC open up relations, why would the Vatican initiate a rebellion? Do you think they are initiating a rebellion now?

The more the PRC tries to suppress certain religions, the worse off it will be in the end. It will be able to maitain control, anyway. FYI, not even every American is middle class, and we certainly are not in the 20st Century.

Since when does the Vatican control French politics? Spanish politics? How about Irish politics?

What is wrong with people being superstitious? It is their right.

As I said before, if China is worried about Vatican having so much influence, they should just try to spread Taoism in the Vatican. I'm sure they have the resources to do so.

That is impossible. Taoism couldn't spread there. Protestantism couldn't even spread there. It is not really a threatening country anyway. My high school had about the same amount of land the Vatican has.

 

[Uiler]

It doesn't matter what you in America think. It matters what the Communist Party think and ironically enough what the Chinese people think (because of the way they will react to religious freedom). I think this is something that people in the West keep on forgetting. It matters not a whit what you think. It doesn't even necessarily matter what the Vatican thinks but what the Chinese think what the Vatican thinks. BTW the Vatican did use to control politics in Europe. It was centuries ago that it had the strength for direct control but the Vatican does have a history of inclination of meddling. Look at the constant triumphing about how the Vatican helped bring down the USSR.

China is not Europe. China is not America. Its history with religion is very different and the way it is perceived in the power structure is different.

BTW it wasn't that long ago in the scheme of things that in America it was thought impossible for a Catholic to become President because no-one would vote for him because of conflicted loyalties. JFK changed that but it was a real concern that was brought up in American politics.

The problem with superstition is that the idea that a lot of Westerners have is that by opening up religious freedom China will become more like them, just like they expected to happen with elections in Muslim countries. It will just be an unpleasant shock for most of them when instead the Chinese will just revert back to being more well, Chinese and ignore them. Also a lot of Chinese superstition does go against modern Western principles. Look at how many people in the West are dismayed and shocked at the election results in Iraq and Palestine and the "wrong" choices they made which they need to be "persuaded" to unmake (esp. in Palestine). Look at the gnashing of teeth and wailing about how they didn't sacrifice in Iraq so that fundamentalist Islamic clerics can get into power. Whether they like to admit it or not they expected that the people in those countries would become more like them. When people in the West talk about "freedom" they mean "as long as you make the 'right' choices". If Bush went to the Americans and said, "Well we think after we get rid of Saddam and have elections some fundamentalist Muslims will be elected and get women to all wear burkas. But you know we just give them the freedom to make their own decisions even if it's a decision to become the Taliban. Who's with me to invade Iraq? Who wants to die for Iraq?" do you honestly think that there would be much support? If Bush believed that I doubt that even *he* would have supported the war. Why do you think that it is so important to choose a "sympathetic" victim for rights organisations to support to drum up popular support? Why do you think that the freedom of religion about China in the West mostly focuses on Christianity? A lot of the Falun Gong practises are pretty abhorent to most Americans and don't make a sympathetic victim if you look closely enough. And Confucius is seen to be backwards. Save the astrologers, soothsayers and magicians doesn't have the same ring in the West as save the persecuted Christians from the Communist lions. What about the Muslims? I don't see any mention of the Muslims. Voltaire (?) may have said that he may despise what someone is saying but will die to defend his right to say it but men like Voltaire are not the norm.

Uiler: If the Vatican and the PRC open up relations, why would the Vatican initiate a rebellion? Do you think they are initiating a rebellion now?

The more the PRC tries to suppress certain religions, the worse off it will be in the end. It will be able to maitain control, anyway. FYI, not even every American is middle class, and we certainly are not in the 20st Century.

Since when does the Vatican control French politics? Spanish politics? How about Irish politics?

What is wrong with people being superstitious? It is their right.



That is impossible. Taoism couldn't spread there. Protestantism couldn't even spread there. It is not really a threatening country anyway. My high school had about the same amount of land the Vatican has.

 

[Zarn]

The PRC would have to be pretty ********, if it thought the Vatican still played that game. That is nothing but an excuse.

I know what China is. Again, you are only making China look close-minded. That does not help its cause.

It was only amongst so many people. No one cares, and the Vatican had nothing to do with JFK (and the reverse as well). Again, you made China look close-minded.

Americans only really care if the person elected is anti-American. That means going against the US in just about everything. Ignoring the US is completely different. I don't care if the average Chinese person wants to think differently than I do. That is that person's right. The PRC has to give that person the right.

Why don't you admit it? The PRC is the one that needs to understand the Western religions. The PRC is the one that needs to be more open.

 

[Uiler]

Yeah, the PRC is close-minded. Who's trying to deny that? Chinese in general are pretty close-minded at least from the Western POV. I'm trying to explain something known as reality to you. I don't think it's entirely stupid though to think that the Vatican is playing games and I don't think it's an excuse. Why? Because CHINA IS NOT AMERICA. How many times do I have to say this? Chinese interpretation of actions and intents are viewed through the prism of Chinese history and culture, not American. CHINESE ARE NOT AMERICANS.

How many times do I have to repeat this? Chinese and the PRC do not think like Americans because they are NOT AMERICANS. Honestly, why do Americans always have so much difficulty in understanding this simple statement. Not everyone thinks like they do. It's not like Buddha. There is not an inner America in every person waiting to burst out. Honestly speaking your words don't make sense anyway? If it's just an excuse, what is it an excuse for? Do you think they have a grudge against the Catholic church in particular and not the Protestants? Maybe Mao's girlfriend got stolen by a Catholic priest and he developed a lifelong hatred against the Vatican? Maybe they drew the Catholic church out of a hat and decided to pick on it randomly. It's obviously got to do with power control and that they believe that by letting the Vatican control the church in China will reduce their power. I'm just trying to explain why this makes sense to the Communist Party through the prism of the fact that Chinese are well, simply not Americans and don't think like Americans in 2006. Personally I don't think their fear is that irrational. Every single dynasty that has lost control of religious groups have lost power and said religious groups always had a major role in their destruction. I also know how ordinary Chinese think because I am Chinese. What Chinese see as strength and weakness is not the same as how Americans see strength and weakness. It's like liberal democracy. You can't just give them elections and hope that an American system will develop overnight. A lot of things have to change internally and I don't think China has changed that much. Also let's look at the recent history of the Vatican. It has helped bring down the USSR and celebrated this fact. It continues to recognise Taiwan. What if any of this inspires confidence in the Vatican by the PRC?

And why should the PRC need to open up? What advantage will it give it? Especially when every iota of Chinese history tells it that by doing so will lead to its destruction? Respect from Western nations? Does it care? Western nations aren't going to stop trading with China because of it. Even if they threatened to do so, then they would have to refuse to give in because to do so would be bowing to a foreign power. Do you think that the PRC wants to be best friends with Western nations and invited over for a cuppa and a sleepover? The PRC and the West is a strictly business relationship. The PRC doesn't want to be buddy-buddy with the US. It doesn't care about making pinky promises and sharing confidences. It's just business. Non-Western nations don't even bother to care. Control? Power? What can it give it that it doesn't have now? When every page of Chinese political history since the Shang dynasty tells it that by doing so it will lose control and lead to its destruction? What's going to more convincing them. The fact that religious based rebellions (including Christian ones) helped bring down practically every Chinese dynasty for the last few thousand years or the assurances of some gwailo that it will lead to strengthening their position? Principles? They will tell you that yes they have freedom of religion as long as they are not political. That's the Chinese interpretation of freedom of religion. If you can convince the PRC that freedom of religion is a moral right of every human being no matter how dangerous it is to the state, then great. I don't think it's possible, but we always need some idealistic fools to throw their lives away as pawns as long as they don't take any innocent bystander with them.

As for JFK. If the Vatican didn't matter, why the hell did he have to make this speech?

http://www.humanistsofhouston.org/JFK_speech.html

But because I am a Catholic, and no Catholic has ever been elected President, the real issues in this campaign have been obscured--perhaps deliberately, in some quarters less responsible than this. So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again--not what kind of church I believe in--for that should be important only to me--but what kind of America I believe in.

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant ministers would tell their parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him....

... And rather than cite the misdeeds of those who differ, I would cite the record of the Catholic church in such nations as Ireland and France--and the independence of such statesmen as Adenauer and De Gaulle.

But let me stress again that these are my views--for contrary to common Newspaper usage--I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters--and the church does not speak for me.

Whatever issue may come before me as President--on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject--I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.

Anyway, I'm just pointing the cold hard facts of reality. If you don't like it tough.

If you care so much then do what someone in this thread suggested. Boycott Chinese goods. That seems pretty fair to me. It would cause a lot of trouble for you but you've got to make some sacrifices for the cause.

As for the things about Americans only caring if the people are anti-American. Once again you are being extremely naive. Look, it's a simple thing. Why do you think rights groups are so careful about choosing a "sympathetic" victim. If Rosa Parkes was a 50 year old Negro druggie do you think she would got nearly the same public support? The issues may have been exactly the same but the emotional appeal which is extremely important in these sort of matters and in declaring war would be missing. Once again I point out, if it's not important why is Christianity always brought up? Why not Islam? Why not the folk religions that are being squished? Free the Muslims. Free the astrologers. Doesn't have the right ring to it in America. There is a big difference between what people say they believe in and what they do sometimes. Everyone likes to say that oh I don't play favourites, but people always do. The image that people have about religious oppression in China is the Christians with the lions or more recently the Polish Catholics in the Cold War.

The PRC would have to be pretty ********, if it thought the Vatican still played that game. That is nothing but an excuse.

I know what China is. Again, you are only making China look close-minded. That does not help its cause.

It was only amongst so many people. No one cares, and the Vatican had nothing to do with JFK (and the reverse as well). Again, you made China look close-minded.

Americans only really care if the person elected is anti-American. That means going against the US in just about everything. Ignoring the US is completely different. I don't care if the average Chinese person wants to think differently than I do. That is that person's right. The PRC has to give that person the right.

Why don't you admit it? The PRC is the one that needs to understand the Western religions. The PRC is the one that needs to be more open.

 

[warpus]

The pope had no role in bringing down the Soviet Empire. The USSR lost because they couldn't beat the US economically, technologically or militarily. The USSR lost because communism is flawed.

Well, first of all, communism isn't flawed itself - the marxist/stalinist version of communism that the Russians were playing with was flawed.

And second of all - yes he did. There are of course many variables involved - and I'm not saying that the USSR would not have fallen without the pope. I'm saying that it would not have happened that soon.

I'm not sure if you remember or not, but the Solidarnosc (Solidarity) movement in Poland, lead by Lech Walesa, was responsible for reforms in Poland and eventually, democracy. This started a chain reaction in Eastern Europe, which culminated with all sorts of other factors - leading to the demise of the USSR.

I was present at 3 of the papal visits in Poland during the 80s - he inspired the people like no other man could. We were united - and when Lech Walesa made his stand - the entire country was behind him. Without the Pope's support we would not have been united enough to get behind Lech and the whole thing would have crashed and burned. The pope gave us hope that nobody else could.

Now, Poland is 98% Roman Catholic, so obviously the situation in China is much different - but the Chinese leadership is afraid of what happened in Poland and the Soviet Union - they are afraid of an outside power (the Vatican) having any sort of influence over their people. They are acting out of an irrational fear - and the want to control their people as much as they can.

 

[Uiler]

Small in numbers but rebellions are led by fervour. Muslims are a minority in China but always rebelled. The Ming sect was extremely small in China (and were labelled by the general populace as the "Demon sect") but constantly rebelled. The Taiping rebellion which was the bloodiest civil war in the history of mankind - the Taiping army (which incidentally was Christian) was mostly made up of ethnic minorities. There are only 2% Muslims in China. That is 20 million people. The Taiping army was only 1 million at its height. Though the lower total population meant that was 4% of the population. The other thing is a lot of historical rebellions occurred in rather localised areas and were not nation-wide events. The point is from the Chinese POV you don't need 98% penetration, hell you don't even need 3% penetration to cause a lot of trouble. As long as there are enough in a specific geographical area esp. those not under complete government control. For example the Taiping rebellion obviously started in the geographical areas where certain ethnic minorities were concentrated. Rebellions tend to start very local. If it's serious it will either spread or cause a chain effect for other local rebellions as people take advantage of weakness in the central authority. You don't really get these nation-wide movements that often. Come to think of it I can only think of those in the ideological wars of the 20th century.

China is not as homogeneous as people seem to think. It's a big country both in terms of land and population size. 3% of the population still means tens of millions of people and there is the question of how geographically concentrated they are and where. Also there is the question of how integrated they are into the general populace or not and their leaders. How clannish they are, temperement, history etc. Even Han chinese are divided into different distinct groups. China is an empire, not a country.

Well, first of all, communism isn't flawed itself - the marxist/stalinist version of communism that the Russians were playing with was flawed.

And second of all - yes he did. There are of course many variables involved - and I'm not saying that the USSR would not have fallen without the pope. I'm saying that it would not have happened that soon.

I'm not sure if you remember or not, but the Solidarnosc (Solidarity) movement in Poland, lead by Lech Walesa, was responsible for reforms in Poland and eventually, democracy. This started a chain reaction in Eastern Europe, which culminated with all sorts of other factors - leading to the demise of the USSR.

I was present at 3 of the papal visits in Poland during the 80s - he inspired the people like no other man could. We were united - and when Lech Walesa made his stand - the entire country was behind him. Without the Pope's support we would not have been united enough to get behind Lech and the whole thing would have crashed and burned. The pope gave us hope that nobody else could.

Now, Poland is 98% Roman Catholic, so obviously the situation in China is much different - but the Chinese leadership is afraid of what happened in Poland and the Soviet Union - they are afraid of an outside power (the Vatican) having any sort of influence over their people. They are acting out of an irrational fear - and the want to control their people as much as they can.

 

[Zarn]

Yeah, the PRC is close-minded. Who's trying to deny that? Chinese in general are pretty close-minded at least from the Western POV. I'm trying to explain something known as reality to you. I don't think it's entirely stupid though to think that the Vatican is playing games and I don't think it's an excuse. Why? Because CHINA IS NOT AMERICA. How many times do I have to say this? Chinese interpretation of actions and intents are viewed through the prism of Chinese history and culture, not American. CHINESE ARE NOT AMERICANS.

How many times do I have to repeat this? Chinese and the PRC do not think like Americans because they are NOT AMERICANS. Honestly, why do Americans always have so much difficulty in understanding this simple statement. Not everyone thinks like they do. It's not like Buddha. There is not an inner America in every person waiting to burst out. Honestly speaking your words don't make sense anyway? If it's just an excuse, what is it an excuse for? Do you think they have a grudge against the Catholic church in particular and not the Protestants? Maybe Mao's girlfriend got stolen by a Catholic priest and he developed a lifelong hatred against the Vatican? Maybe they drew the Catholic church out of a hat and decided to pick on it randomly. It's obviously got to do with power control and that they believe that by letting the Vatican control the church in China will reduce their power. I'm just trying to explain why this makes sense to the Communist Party through the prism of the fact that Chinese are well, simply not Americans and don't think like Americans in 2006. Personally I don't think their fear is that irrational. Every single dynasty that has lost control of religious groups have lost power and said religious groups always had a major role in their destruction. I also know how ordinary Chinese think because I am Chinese. What Chinese see as strength and weakness is not the same as how Americans see strength and weakness. It's like liberal democracy. You can't just give them elections and hope that an American system will develop overnight. A lot of things have to change internally and I don't think China has changed that much. Also let's look at the recent history of the Vatican. It has helped bring down the USSR and celebrated this fact. It continues to recognise Taiwan. What if any of this inspires confidence in the Vatican by the PRC?

And why should the PRC need to open up? What advantage will it give it? Especially when every iota of Chinese history tells it that by doing so will lead to its destruction? Respect from Western nations? Does it care? Western nations aren't going to stop trading with China because of it. Even if they threatened to do so, then they would have to refuse to give in because to do so would be bowing to a foreign power. Do you think that the PRC wants to be best friends with Western nations and invited over for a cuppa and a sleepover? The PRC and the West is a strictly business relationship. The PRC doesn't want to be buddy-buddy with the US. It doesn't care about making pinky promises and sharing confidences. It's just business. Non-Western nations don't even bother to care. Control? Power? What can it give it that it doesn't have now? When every page of Chinese political history since the Shang dynasty tells it that by doing so it will lose control and lead to its destruction? What's going to more convincing them. The fact that religious based rebellions (including Christian ones) helped bring down practically every Chinese dynasty for the last few thousand years or the assurances of some gwailo that it will lead to strengthening their position? Principles? They will tell you that yes they have freedom of religion as long as they are not political. That's the Chinese interpretation of freedom of religion. If you can convince the PRC that freedom of religion is a moral right of every human being no matter how dangerous it is to the state, then great. I don't think it's possible, but we always need some idealistic fools to throw their lives away as pawns as long as they don't take any innocent bystander with them.

As for JFK. If the Vatican didn't matter, why the hell did he have to make this speech?

http://www.humanistsofhouston.org/JFK_speech.html



Anyway, I'm just pointing the cold hard facts of reality. If you don't like it tough.

If you care so much then do what someone in this thread suggested. Boycott Chinese goods. That seems pretty fair to me. It would cause a lot of trouble for you but you've got to make some sacrifices for the cause.

As for the things about Americans only caring if the people are anti-American. Once again you are being extremely naive. Look, it's a simple thing. Why do you think rights groups are so careful about choosing a "sympathetic" victim. If Rosa Parkes was a 50 year old Negro druggie do you think she would got nearly the same public support? The issues may have been exactly the same but the emotional appeal which is extremely important in these sort of matters and in declaring war would be missing. Once again I point out, if it's not important why is Christianity always brought up? Why not Islam? Why not the folk religions that are being squished? Free the Muslims. Free the astrologers. Doesn't have the right ring to it in America. There is a big difference between what people say they believe in and what they do sometimes. Everyone likes to say that oh I don't play favourites, but people always do. The image that people have about religious oppression in China is the Christians with the lions or more recently the Polish Catholics in the Cold War.

Would you stop making baseless accusations? It is getting tiring. I'm not naive and I don't think the Chinese are Americans, so you can quit putting words in my mouth. I know why the PRC is nervous. I take this situation very seriously, and boycotting rarely ever hurts those in charge. It is the people that are usaully hurt from it.

You give all this information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You don't seem to be either. Large posts don't mean you are right. It means you pressed alot of keys. Are you Catholic (one 'in the know') or Chinese (one 'in the know')? Not being either doesn't disqualify you for discussing, but how could you call me naive, when I know what is happening. You don't need to explain anything to me. You are all for the Chinese (the government anyway) side of things, but you don't care for the Catholic side of things. Those people maybe Chinese, but they are also Catholic.

 

[plarq]

You give all this information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You don't seem to be either. Large posts don't mean you are right. It means you pressed alot of keys. Are you Catholic (one 'in the know') or Chinese (one 'in the know')? Not being either doesn't disqualify you for discussing, but how could you call me naive, when I know what is happening. You don't need to explain anything to me. You are all for the Chinese (the government anyway) side of things, but you don't care for the Catholic side of things. Those people maybe Chinese, but they are also Catholic.

Hey, some of Chinese Catholics may also think that Vatican is intervening Chinese domestic politics because Vatican has bad relation with PRC and good with Taiwan. Remember we're just getting out of brainwashing propaganda, so even Catholics can have some ridiculous (for a Catholic) doctrine against foreign power. I'll try to contact one of my friends who is a Catholic, but I don't expect cheerful result. She may respond, "So what? Have we ever had Vatican's influence before?" Catholics may have a lower percentage in supporting our regime, but they're also mainstreamers, meaning they can't go far. The string of goverment-controlled ideology is only slightly loose for most of them.

Education couldn't even touch our close-minded view of world, Uiler's right on that issue, sadly. I would say our people deserve such a bad regime, because most of them couldn't have a better politics blueprint and required quality on social activities. Sometimes I even think our goverment is better than the one we deserve.

 

[Uiler]

Yes I am Chinese. Who says I am for the PRC? I am just trying to point out cold hard reality to you. Cynicism about politics is a typical Chinese trait BTW. Chinese will say, "1 American life is worth 10 000 Chinese lives" just like stating cold hard facts and without much bitterness. Why do you think Chinese glorify gimping the system? Why should I be for the Catholic side of things anyway? Why should I care?

Yes, I do think you are that naive. In all your posts to me you show no understanding of the fact that what matters for how Chinese catholics are treated is not what the Vatican thinks but what the Communist Party *thinks* the Vatican thinks. You keep on talking about how the Vatican is not a threat, look how it is in the West now etc. but you don't understand that this does not necessarily matter. From the prism of Chinese history and Chinese politics the Vatican is a threat. Not necessarily because of whether they are evil or good but simply because of what they are. The head of a hierarchal religion that is the head of a foreign country, to make it worse a foreign country that recognises what it considers a rebel province. It wouldn't matter if they were all Mother Theresa's or all evil bastards. The Communist Party would still be suspicious of them and all of their worshippers in China. Because the Communist Party is Chinese.

You can either accept that or you can't.

In fact in some ways the Catholics are being treated quite well. They still have their lives and can worship in a limited way. This is far better than how previous Chinese governments have treated similar religious threats, the general response of which was mass extermination. We're talking about a great deal of progress here. Maybe in a few decades China will change enough so that they will truly have freedom of worship. Right now they're still living which a great achievement over say 100 years ago.

However the Chinese government is far from the only one which has suspected the Vatican. JFK was forced to make a speech declaring that he would never take orders from the Vatican to be elected President. It's only in the last few decades that the Vatican has been accepted as a somewhat neutral part in the West at least. Definitely not in the former USSR. In fact I think a large part of its gain in reputation in America was due to its actions against the USSR. You are also naive to think that religion and politics don't mix and try to keep on insisting that the Vatican is a thing that only cares about souls. They definitely do a prolicivity to interfere. It's only recently in Western countries (but not in say Poland) that they have lost the ability to do so on a significant scale. Howver, not the desire. From the beginning of its life the Vatican and the Roman Catholic church was a political animal. It's just that in America is is now a neutured political animal. To deny this is the height of naiveness about what the Vatican is and its history.

On the bright side of things since the Communist Party is currently in control of the religious groups it means we're still in the good side of the dynastic cycle so we can still look forward to some years of stability before the inevitable collapse. This is lesson 101 of Chinese political theory. I have to admit I wonder which religious group is going to beat up the Communist "dynasty" to allow others to give the killing blow. It would be cool if it would be the Falun Gong. If we think Mao==First Emperor, Communist Party starting with Deng Xiao Peng==Han dynasty. The Han got mortally weakened by the Taoist Yellow Scarves and one of the symbols of the Taoist Falun Gong is well a Yellow Scarf. A nice symmetry. Like last time a few (well a lot really) Muslim rebellions with terrorism this time! Guangdong and Shanghai seem to be the two main candidates for the powerbases of the two main warlords in the ensuing civil war in my opinion. It's not like they haven't played that role before. Now if things go according to schedule the collapse won't start until *after* Taiwan has been "eaten". I don't see any potential invaders so it's likely the next leaders will be Chinese not foreigners.

Would you stop making baseless accusations? It is getting tiring. I'm not naive and I don't think the Chinese are Americans, so you can quit putting words in my mouth. I know why the PRC is nervous. I take this situation very seriously, and boycotting rarely ever hurts those in charge. It is the people that are usaully hurt from it.

You give all this information that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You don't seem to be either. Large posts don't mean you are right. It means you pressed alot of keys. Are you Catholic (one 'in the know') or Chinese (one 'in the know')? Not being either doesn't disqualify you for discussing, but how could you call me naive, when I know what is happening. You don't need to explain anything to me. You are all for the Chinese (the government anyway) side of things, but you don't care for the Catholic side of things. Those people maybe Chinese, but they are also Catholic.

 

[Zarn]

I know about the history of the Church very well (I would have not have made it to college otherwise). I know China thinks it is a threat, but that doesn't mean it should shut out the Vatican. The Vatican can only be a threat, if you are a threat to it. See Cuba. I'm also not naive. I just have been on the Vatican's side of these Beijing- Vatican issues for years now. I didn't find this topic on the board a few days ago and felt like entrenching right away.

Either way, The PRC is still wrong. I know it is trying to protect itself, but it really is not protecting itself against anything. I do know it is getting slighty better, but it is not good enough. It is way too slow. The Vatican is not going to settle for less, so don't expect it. Remember, it also had problems with political entities like China did with religious ones. Again, the JFK thing was not the majority of people. Also, America not being perfect (several decades ago and they still aren't like everyone else) wouldn't excuse China.

Now, I have a question. Do you personally think Vatican backed bishops are a threat to the Chinese government? I do find it funny that you think the Vatican has not changed at all. I also find it funny that China adopted a 'foreign' economic system, but it won't allow a 'foreign' religion that only contains a small percentage of its population.

Plarq: That is the whole point of being Catholic. Otherwise, you are some other form of Christian. Simply put, if you follow Catholicism, you follow the Vatican. It doesn't matter where you live. You wouldn't follow it like you would Beijing or even Washington, though. I think the government should give the people the best it can, even if it is not representative.

 

[Ramius75]

like to add that Catholic church still dont advocate the use of condom(except aids), something which the CPC is trying very hard to encourage.

 

[Zarn]

like to add that Catholic church still dont advocate the use of condom(except aids), something which the CPC is trying very hard to encourage.

You know why China's gov likes condoms, so nice try.

Another solution: Europe might need people soon...

 

[eyrei]

When the vatican excommunicates people for political reasons they give many of us more reason to completely dismiss anything they say. They need to stick to 'tending to their flock' and stay out of politics. There are so few souls left in politics to make it not worth their while...

 

[warpus]

Uiler

That was a very insightful post - very interesting perspective..

 

[Ramius75]

You know why China's gov likes condoms, so nice try.

Another solution: Europe might need people soon...

well, if only europe will accept more chinese immigrant, then maybe the chinese catholic can migrate there

 

[Zarn]

When the vatican excommunicates people for political reasons they give many of us more reason to completely dismiss anything they say. They need to stick to 'tending to their flock' and stay out of politics. There are so few souls left in politics to make it not worth their while...

Political reasons? The Vatican chooses bishops, and it simply excommunicated false bishops. That is a religious reason.

Ramius: At least we can agree on something. If only Europe would agree, then we could be on to something big. I somehow doubt that though. Europeans generally don't like immigration.

 

[eyrei]

Political reasons? The Vatican chooses bishops, and it simply excommunicated false bishops. That is a religious reason.

And what exactly was wrong with these bishops? If there are Catholics in China, should they not have bishops to tend to them?