Vatican Excommunicates new Chinese bishops

[Xenocrates]

Dann, part of being Catholic is following the Vatican (and I know you know that).

That's why it's hard to tell what's a religion and what's a political movement.

In China stability>everything.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Excommunication? Thought that was for history books.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

You realize I used that infamous quote as just a figure of speech right? I even added an "ack" smiley.

Doesn't mean its not a great idea I even added a "smug" smilie.

 

[Panzeh]

Stability is for pansies. People who can handle themselves don't need stability.

 

[Dann]

OK, the Vatican doesn't recongize PRC because PRC doesn't recongize Vatican's role as spiritual leader of Catholics. Many countries hold freedom of religion and still keep their soveignity without intervention of Vatican on Catholic issues. It's just another excuse to suppress Religion Freedom.

But not all countries have gone through what we have, and thus have not developed our paranoia...

I know this would be sharply criticized by Chinese conservatives. But religion freedom allows stupidity, like following a leadership far away...

Chinese rulers still have this mindest that being the citizen of a country or follower of any leader = obedience and willingness to follow said leader. They have not yet grasped the Western mindset. For instance can Arroyo order me to do anything at all? Hah!

...The thing is, if Vatican and PRC ever has diplomatic relationship, it's obligation of Vatican NOT to instigate Chinese Catholics against the authority.

Of course.

@Zarn
Why compromise? Because it works. Things aren't so bad here. Because the Catholic Church is legit and not perceived as an enemy, no trouble will befall you if you wear a crucifix over a Jesus T-shirt, go to the mall and read the Bible while sitting in a coffee shop (Don't harass other people though). Can you do that in say, Saudi Arabia?

OTOH just look at the Falungong to see what happens to religions that choose to fight.

I admit the situation of the Catholic Church here currently is a bit weird (to outsiders' eyes) but at least it's (1) able to exist in peace and (2) better than nothing. (Protestants have less problems here because they have no outside central authority to answer to.) We need to wait. Change comes very slowly here in China.

Oh and like you, I hate politics. What we need more is genuine statesmanship.

 

[Red Stranger]

I don't see why the Chinese are so worried about the Vatican. It's not like the vatican can attack China or threaten it. If China is so worried, why not just do a role reversal and start spreading Taoism in the Vatican instead of suppressing Catholicism.

 

[Ramius75]

Why do you seem to have a problem with people wanting to worship thier religion? Its not hurting anyone in this case...

Well, im an atheist, i choose not to believe in religion myself, but im not against ppl who worship them.

yes, i may nag if my family get too superstitous themselve,(my family is taoism, and my brother a buddhist). But most of the time, i repect each and everyone with their religion.

Catholic is a very peculiar religion as it established a hiereachy system within themselve, king(pope) and its aristorats(cardinal, bishops). and i have no liking for any monarchy structure.

Nonetheless, i do have to admit that catholics do alot of good also, in some ways. Like also the dedication of the brothers and nuns. Im from a catholic school myself, 11yrs all in all. with respect to many brothers in my school.

The problem with religion is also it always inspires fanatics, one way or another, in good or bad. With catholism, whose loyalty would come first if there are crisis in the nation ? The nation itself or the religion ? As many mentioned, there is a conflicts of interest here. The chinese saw enough of ppl selling out the nation due to different beliefs. And harm many other countrymen in the process. This should reduced to the minimum.


Alas, catholism isnt as bad as it was during the dark ages. It has grown and become very responsible. And very much of its power reduced by the secular goverment in the western world. Its still having it foothold in some other countries thou. and immediately, 1 very good example is Philipine, where the bishop exercised alot of power, enought to topple even the president itself.

This is to be fearful everywhere, religion should have no affairs in politic whatsoever.

 

[plarq]

The problem with religion is also it always inspires fanatics, one way or another, in good or bad. With catholism, whose loyalty would come first if there are crisis in the nation ? The nation itself or the religion ? As many mentioned, there is a conflicts of interest here. The chinese saw enough of ppl selling out the nation due to different beliefs. And harm many other countrymen in the process. This should reduced to the minimum.

I disagree with that conclusion. Ppls selling out of the nation because of different belief? WTH. The nation is already sold out in morals for oppression of different beliefs. I wouldn't fight for my country if she's already bankrupted in morals, and even worse, most of our people don't even feel it. And I want to mention that people with different beliefs also fought for this country before, so this paranoia is obvious unreasonable and harmful.

Alas, catholism isnt as bad as it was during the dark ages. It has grown and become very responsible. And very much of its power reduced by the secular goverment in the western world. Its still having it foothold in some other countries thou. and immediately, 1 very good example is Philipine, where the bishop exercised alot of power, enought to topple even the president itself.

This is to be fearful everywhere, religion should have no affairs in politic whatsoever.

For Philipine affairs, I would like to listen to Dann. But how could Catholics topple Chinese goverment? Heck, even Falun Gong can't touch a finger of it.

 

[Ramius75]

I disagree with that conclusion. Ppls selling out of the nation because of different belief? WTH. The nation is already sold out in morals for oppression of different beliefs. I wouldn't fight for my country if she's already bankrupted in morals, and even worse, most of our people don't even feel it. And I want to mention that people with different beliefs also fought for this country before, so this paranoia is obvious unreasonable and harmful.

Whatever the belief on how one shall rule over the country, it should be fought within the country itself, but not by any external influence from other countries with their own agendas.
If u feel that morally China is failing, its ur opinion, but it isnt the same when some leader from other country order u to do some, or think his/her way.

For Philipine affairs, I would like to listen to Dann. But how could Catholics topple Chinese goverment? Heck, even Falun Gong can't touch a finger of it.

It only happened, becoz in phillipine, the Catholics are overwhelming majority, yes, u can try to hear from Dann. but also u can try to read more in the particular subject also. about how Gloria Arroyo topple Estreda and how they eventually overcome marcos also.

Religion mixing with politics is very very dangerous, particuallly to a multi religious society, some would want to impose their religion belief onto others.

 

[Dann]

...The nation is already sold out in morals for oppression of different beliefs...

I don't see much oppression going on. But then again, I'm in an SEZ.

...I wouldn't fight for my country if she's already bankrupted in morals, and even worse, most of our people don't even feel it...

Hmm... I for one don't see a China that's morally bankrupt. She's just returning to her normal capitalist, pragmatic self - the way she's been for millenia before the communists imposed a foreign ideology upon her.

The way I see it, the threat to Chinese society today actually comes from the youth. Yes the youth. An entire generation of spoiled siblingless children born into relative affluence, and yet subject to the old ways of indoctrination in school. (You know what I'm talking about. ) Couple that with children's natural rebellious tendency towards their parents along with everything they stand for and you have a dangerous mix. Immature xenophobic hatemongers with no idea of how the world really works. If these become China's future leaders and they retain their mindset by age 40 then we're all screwed.

Thankfully most of them grow out of their ivory towers upon leaving school and entering the workforce.

...For Philipine affairs, I would like to listen to Dann. But how could Catholics topple Chinese goverment? Heck, even Falun Gong can't touch a finger of it.

Yes, it's impossible. Christians are a minority in China, Catholics even lesser.

By sheer numbers, the religion to fear would be Buddhists and Taoists. But these religions are not organized, and have always been passive and non-interventionist anyway.

...It only happened, becoz in phillipine, the Catholics are overwhelming majority, yes, u can try to hear from Dann. but also u can try to read more in the particular subject also. about how Gloria Arroyo topple Estreda and how they eventually overcome marcos also...

In both cases what happened was that a political crisis occurred (plus a military mutiny in the Marcos case), and then the Church took a side and actively fought against the other side, eventually winning because they have a huge support among the people, who were genuinely disgruntled at the time.

It would be a stretch to say that the Catholic Church on its own deposed 2 Philippine presidents. Notice how the most recent attempt to depose Arroyo failed inspite of Church support, because the middle class has grown tired of the endless merry-go-round, and saw no viable alternative to replace her anyway.

 

[Dida]

The Chinese government doesn't allow much freedom of religion in their realm, but following the Vatican around isn't exactly freedom either. Remember, Vatican is not only a religious organization; it is also a political unit, a country. I don't see why China should allow another country to have any say in the appointment of important officials in China.
By comparison, the Vatican has committed way more atrocity than the communists in China and is by far the greater of the two evils. China at least allows some degree of religious freedom; does the Vatican allow any Catholic to follow 2 religions at the same time? While we think about liberating the Chinese under communist rule, why not liberate the Catholics as well? I think the Vatican City shall be emptied, the Pope’s authority abolished and the world’s 1 billion Catholics freed.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

China should think about it, Catholics are followers of the Catholic Church. Since the "Capital" of the Catholic Church is the Vatican, it should have a say in the determining of bishops. It's like the UN trying to control America's foreign policy (militarily), it's asinine and ******** beyond words, and will never under any circumstances happen.

 

[Zarn]

The Chinese government doesn't allow much freedom of religion in their realm, but following the Vatican around isn't exactly freedom either. Remember, Vatican is not only a religious organization; it is also a political unit, a country. I don't see why China should allow another country to have any say in the appointment of important officials in China.
By comparison, the Vatican has committed way more atrocity than the communists in China and is by far the greater of the two evils. China at least allows some degree of religious freedom; does the Vatican allow any Catholic to follow 2 religions at the same time? While we think about liberating the Chinese under communist rule, why not liberate the Catholics as well? I think the Vatican City shall be emptied, the Pope’s authority abolished and the world’s 1 billion Catholics freed.

How could you truly be Catholic and another religion at the same time? Besides, I have never seen the Vatican attack those with Catholic and Jewish parents.

Being Catholic is a choice, anyway. Just believing in a supreme god is not a choice. If you choose not to be Catholic, you don't follow the FEW rules that comes with it. I know I am free and true to myself. Being Catholic is my decision just like it is of those people in China. The Vatican, Beijing, Washington, etc... should have nothing to do with which religion you choose. The Vatican only has authority, if you want it to have authority (by being Catholic).

 

[IglooDame]

The Chinese government doesn't allow much freedom of religion in their realm, but following the Vatican around isn't exactly freedom either. Remember, Vatican is not only a religious organization; it is also a political unit, a country. I don't see why China should allow another country to have any say in the appointment of important officials in China.
By comparison, the Vatican has committed way more atrocity than the communists in China and is by far the greater of the two evils. China at least allows some degree of religious freedom; does the Vatican allow any Catholic to follow 2 religions at the same time? While we think about liberating the Chinese under communist rule, why not liberate the Catholics as well? I think the Vatican City shall be emptied, the Pope’s authority abolished and the world’s 1 billion Catholics freed.

Please back up your comparison that the Vatican has committed "way more atrocity" than the communists in China; offhand the fact that the Vatican has been around (in effect, if not in name) for over a thousand years while the Chinese Communists have been around for under a hundred means that you're comparing apples to apple trees in the first place, but I'm hard-pressed to see anything the Vatican doing showing up on the same scale as Mao's north-of-35-million dead.

And your claim about "liberating Catholics" is kind of goofy; following any religion is (minus brainwashing cults) almost by definition voluntary in nature.

Surely China's treatment of the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama shows that the problem isn't unique to Catholics, in any case; Tibetan Buddhists are facing similar treatment.

 

[warpus]

I don't see why the Chinese are so worried about the Vatican.

Maybe they remember that the pope was partially responsible for bringing down the Soviet Empire?

 

[Che Guava]

Maybe they remember that the pope was partially responsible for bringing down the Soviet Empire?

I don't think the pope wield much, if any power, in modern china.

The Chinese Communist Party is more concerned with falun gong (sp?) and buddhist movements, if I have interpreted the news correctly, and probably rightly so. I don't think either of these movements fits well with authoritarianism or nationalism.

 

[Dann]

Surely China's treatment of the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama shows that the problem isn't unique to Catholics, in any case; Tibetan Buddhists are facing similar treatment.

The Panchen Lama is on good terms with the government.

Maybe they remember that the pope was partially responsible for bringing down the Soviet Empire?

But key word being partial. The Soviet Empire's biggest mistake was paying too much attention to the arms race and fighting the Cold War while ignoring the economy and the people's welfare.

The Chinese Communist Party is more concerned with falun gong (sp?) and buddhist movements, if I have interpreted the news correctly, and probably rightly so. I don't think either of these movements fits well with authoritarianism or nationalism.

The Falungong is a spent force. It holds no influence in China today, and the government has done so thorough and efficient an information campaign the average Chinese today automatically associates Falungong = crackpot.

 

[warpus]

I don't think the pope wield much, if any power, in modern china.

The Chinese Communist Party is more concerned with falun gong (sp?) and buddhist movements, if I have interpreted the news correctly, and probably rightly so. I don't think either of these movements fits well with authoritarianism or nationalism.

Yeah, but they're paranoid. If the pope played such a huge part in bringing down the OTHER communist power, they probably figure that they should play it safe.

 

[IglooDame]

The Panchen Lama is on good terms with the government.

You're being disingenuous. The boy the Chinese government has selected to be the Panchen Lama is presumably on good terms with the government (and one would be stunned if he weren't), but the boy that the Dalai Lama selected to be the Panchen Lama was arrested by Chinese authorities in 1995 and has never been heard from since.

Good summary article here:
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9907/02/little.lama/

 

[plarq]

The Falungong is a spent force. It holds no influence in China today, and the government has done so thorough and efficient an information campaign the average Chinese today automatically associates Falungong = crackpot.

They're a real shame for people like me who disagree with our authority. Too childish and emotional without any common sense, just like fighting a windmill with a lance.

And for Ramius, I think there have been and always will be Catholic patriots in China, just like Catholics in US and European countries who also defend their own nation even if the ruling people aren't Catholics. Cutting down the connection between Catholics and Vatican could only extremize them, and causing more troubles.

Maybe our goverment will use "Catholics=Vatican=Taiwan Independence Supporters" propaganda someday, in order to demonize Catholics. I foresee that worrying potential...

On a random note, I've seen several Chinese Christian intellectuals who proposed a "Christian Democracy" as an ideal state model for post-communist China, on a disfident leaning website. I disagree with them, and I don't think Christianity could be the salvation from our current situation. I appreciate their courage though.