Vatican Excommunicates new Chinese bishops

[Inqvisitor]

Wow, how many years did this take while John Paul II was in bed with the communists....? These Chinese appointees are nothing more than government officials. Maybe somebody in that Vatican finally fell upon a Codex of Canon Law and discovered what "excommunication" is (and what it is not!) This "Patriotic Chinese church" or whatever its called has been under latæ sententiæ excommunication for years.

 

[Xanikk999]

Actually, it will be better if they decided to outlaw catholics all together, but alas its a religons that is 2000 yrs with deep root and will be hard to eradicate. Agreed that the catholics in china should try be like the protestant instead and not decided to listen to someone who takes "instruction" from his "god". So who shall we listen to? The guy or the god?

Sadly, there will still be many who wanted to believe in catholism, It will be hard to remove their faith and better than letting them to be in underground. A "fake" Bishop was appointed instead.

As an atheist government, the CPC is trying to be "moderate" with many bad results.

Its really up the the belief of the people, the chinese CPC to determine what they want.

Why do you seem to have a problem with people wanting to worship thier religion? Its not hurting anyone in this case...

 

[aussieboy]

Good god in heaven! I actually agree with Inqvisitor, the heretic, on something! God damn the PCC! Down with communism!

*hands every Catholic a Chinese flag and a kerosene lighter*

 

[Xenocrates]

Do you guys seriously think that there's no danger to Chinese prosperity by cutting religions loose of state supervision?

If they trusted the Catholics, they'd have to trust everyone. There's many many religions in China and that would be seriously dangerous.

Besides which, how do you tell the 'real' religions from the fronts for mafia, terrorist organisations and American-supported trouble makers?

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Do you guys seriously think that there's no danger to Chinese prosperity by cutting religions loose of state supervision?

If they trusted the Catholics, they'd have to trust everyone. There's many many religions in China and that would be seriously dangerous.

Besides which, how do you tell the 'real' religions from the fronts for mafia, terrorist organisations and American-supported trouble makers?

Wow, there's a paranoia you don't see every day The problem with the dangerous religions is that by supressing all religions equally, all religions then become dangerous. It wouldn't take Einstein to tell which religions are legitimate and which aren't.

 

[Xanikk999]

Do you guys seriously think that there's no danger to Chinese prosperity by cutting religions loose of state supervision?

If they trusted the Catholics, they'd have to trust everyone. There's many many religions in China and that would be seriously dangerous.

Besides which, how do you tell the 'real' religions from the fronts for mafia, terrorist organisations and American-supported trouble makers?

I dont know how you can compare christianity to mafia and terrorist organizations.

Im not christian but it just sounds like your distrustful of western religion in general. There may be christian terrorist organizations but they would be very small and a major minority. It just sounds like your sort of paranoid about western religion.

People can choose for themselves what religion they want to worship. And i highly doubt chinas local religions are in danger.

 

[GenMarshall]

No disrespect to the Catholic Church but "How many divisions does the Pope have?" and all that. We're no longer living in the times of the Holy Roman Empire.

Chinese Catholics are subjected to the Vatican and the pope as much as I am and other Catholics in this forum and around the world. The Chinese Government should stay out of the Church's affairs and stop being so distrusting of Christianity, as well as Islam and Buddhism.

The Chinese have tried to suppress Taoism and they failed to whipe the religion away. The Soviet Union and their atheistic government have topled the Russian Orthodox Church but then the Soviets in time of need during World War II brought back the Russian Orthodox Church to bring hope to the people.

Preaching no freedom of religion makes me both sick and upset. Last time I checked in "what would you do if Religion was banned" thread, many of the atheists would be against it and would fight for others to worship to whatever people chose to worship.

Wow, how many years did this take while John Paul II was in bed with the communists....? These Chinese appointees are nothing more than government officials. Maybe somebody in that Vatican finally fell upon a Codex of Canon Law and discovered what "excommunication" is (and what it is not!) This "Patriotic Chinese church" or whatever its called has been under latæ sententiæ excommunication for years.

First of all, many of the Chinese Catholic Churches are organised underground to escape persecution and harassment from the atheistisc Chinese Communist Government. Looking back, that is how the Catholic Church got it's start when the Roman Empire used to persecute Christians untill Contantine (spelling?) accepted and made Christianity a state religion in the Roman Empire.

Second of all, this is certanly going to shake the entire world, but this might be one of the first incodences that I actualy agree with you on the subject of Excommunication .

 

[Xenocrates]

Wow, there's a paranoia you don't see every day The problem with the dangerous religions is that by supressing all religions equally, all religions then become dangerous. It wouldn't take Einstein to tell which religions are legitimate and which aren't.

fair point well made.

I can only argue that it's not suppression, just extreme caution in who gets to pretend to know what God's all about and thus influence the actions of the believers. I think that us Westerners underestimate the piety of non-Western believers; they take religion very seriously in many countries including China and I sincerely doubt that the Catholicism of the West bares much resemblance to the Catholism of China and Africa.

In China's eyes the only legitimate religions are those that they can keep their eye on! That's their policy. If China is able to stay stable for another couple of decades I suspect they may be confident enough to relax about it, but not yet. Be patient will you, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Zarn]

China's eyes don't matter. What matters is that China has no right to intervene with the religion of those people, and that includes choosing the clergy (Catholics listen to the Vatican).

There are many Westerners who take religion seriously. Catholicism is a huge religion and every person within it is very different (not just between regions). I understand that, but they are still Catholics. That means the Papacy is in control. If anything that keeps them moderate. Using these PRC 'clergy' is actually taking them away from their religion.

 

[Shaihulud]

China doesn't want an organised religion with a leader that is head of a political group, with secular power. Worse, that leader is also head of another country! Surely any country would be cautious regarding a religion that is of this manner. China fears a conflict of interest might tear the loyalty of its Catholic citizens. Chinese society hates religion that tries to hold political power, a good case study is the Falungong. When its leaders try to gain political power, they were crushed. You will find little sympathy for them in the streets of Beijing or any part of China, don't expect Catholics to fare any better.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

China doesn't want an organised religion with a leader that is head of a political group, with secular power. Worse, that leader is also head of another country! Surely any country would be cautious regarding a religion that is of this manner. China fears a conflict of interest might tear the loyalty of its Catholic citizens. Chinese society hates religion that tries to hold political power, a good case study is the Falungong. When its leaders try to gain political power, they were crushed. You will find little sympathy for them in the streets of Beijing or any part of China, don't expect Catholics to fare any better.

I think the Vatican secret service is coming to get you for revealing their evil plot for world domination. The Vatican City sure is the mightiest country in the world, and the Pope is out to rule China all for himself.

 

[Zarn]

China doesn't want an organised religion with a leader that is head of a political group, with secular power. Worse, that leader is also head of another country! Surely any country would be cautious regarding a religion that is of this manner. China fears a conflict of interest might tear the loyalty of its Catholic citizens. Chinese society hates religion that tries to hold political power, a good case study is the Falungong. When its leaders try to gain political power, they were crushed. You will find little sympathy for them in the streets of Beijing or any part of China, don't expect Catholics to fare any better.

The only way China loses loyalty is if they try to control the Catholics there. Wanting to keep loyalty isn't a good reason, either. This is all on China.

 

[Dann]

If those Chinese people are truly Catholic, then they are subject to the Vatican just as much as I am. The Chinese government should have nothing to do with it. The US government does not appoint bishops. Neither does any other nation. Why should China? Historical trends are no excuse for that behavior.

Should the Church be able to pick Chinese officials now? It is only fair. Right? We do have a history of political leaders causing disruptions with the Catholic Church. German rulers, England, etc...

Zarn the answer is this:

It's nothing to do with free religion it's to do with who pulls the strings.

It's the fact that foreigners are pulling the strings that probably concerns them the most.

Think about it. A religion so well organized it has a chain of command that stretches all the way to 1 supreme ruler for the entire planet, and this ruler is not only a religious figure but the supreme ruler of a sovereign state as well! How the heck d you expect the Chinese rulers to stand for that?

*hands every Catholic a Chinese flag and a kerosene lighter*

Again, meh.

Besides which, how do you tell the 'real' religions from the fronts for mafia, terrorist organisations and American-supported trouble makers?

Wow, there's a paranoia you don't see every day The problem with the dangerous religions is that by supressing all religions equally, all religions then become dangerous. It wouldn't take Einstein to tell which religions are legitimate and which aren't.

No problem at all. You just monitor all religions. How? By requiring them to register with you before they can practice in public. Why? "Better to kill 1000 innocents wrongly than to let 1 guilty one escape" and all that.

Like I said. Paranoia.

People can choose for themselves what religion they want to worship. And i highly doubt chinas local religions are in danger.

Yep. Buddhism, Taoism are flourishing once again. Even Islam (not of the Wahabist variety however) is doing ok.

Chinese Catholics are subjected to the Vatican and the pope as much as I am and other Catholics in this forum and around the world. The Chinese Government should stay out of the Church's affairs and stop being so distrusting of Christianity, as well as Islam and Buddhism.

In an ideal world, yes. Unfortunately there is such a thing as politics getting in the way. The rift between China's government and the Catholic Church boils down to that to this day, the Vatican recognizes the ROC and not the PRC, that is all. Thus no direct communication between these 2. Thus the strange situation Chinese Catholics find themselves in.

The Chinese have tried to suppress Taoism and they failed to whipe the religion away.

No they didn't. It's only the Red Guards during the Cultural revolution. When they tried to do away with all religions.

Taoism is so much a part of Chinese culture it's impossible to cut it away.

Using these PRC 'clergy' is actually taking them away from their religion.

I don't see why. They're using the same Bible and following the same practices. Even the ceremonies are the same.

 

[Zarn]

Dann, part of being Catholic is following the Vatican (and I know you know that). China can't make those people leave this part out, or they would otherwise not be Catholic. Basically, they are forbidden to choose Catholicism as their religion.

Even if China feels threatened, does it make it right for China to do this to people?

 

[Jeff Yu]

Somehow there are still parts of the world that dont have Freedom of Religion and would rather have state controled churches.

Discuss.

You do realize that the Catholic church is also a state-controlled church, right? And as for freedom of religion, you HAVE heard of papal infallibility, right? The Catholic church is what El Papa orders, not what you want to believe. And as for the actual excommunication, meh. The Vatican doesn't even diplomatically recognize China, so it's not like there's going to be any change in a non-existent relationship. The Vatican can maybe threaten spiritual consequences, but that's about all they can do.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Good god in heaven! I actually agree with Inqvisitor, the heretic, on something! God damn the PCC! Down with communism!

*hands every Catholic a Chinese flag and a kerosene lighter*

Probably not a good idea, considering how paranoid the Chinese communist government is about religious movements, and their probable reaction to a widespread anti-Chinese catholic movement. If the Catholics start burning Chinese flags, the Chinese government might just start burning Catholics.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

No problem at all. You just monitor all religions. How? By requiring them to register with you before they can practice in public. Why? "Better to kill 1000 innocents wrongly than to let 1 guilty one escape" and all that.

Like I said. Paranoia.

I discovered another upside of paranoid killings of a 1000 innocents - doesn't China have a population problem? The Catholic Church is the answer (I probably should not have said that, but I couldn't resist. Mean no offence)

I don't see why. They're using the same Bible and following the same practices. Even the ceremonies are the same.

There's also quality control and to ensure the bishops don't become to involved with people politically. Like it or not, (IMO) the Vatican is more qualified to deem a good bishop than a political party of any nature.

 

[Dann]

Dann, part of being Catholic is following the Vatican (and I know you know that). China can't make those people leave this part out, or they would otherwise not be Catholic. Basically, they are forbidden to choose Catholicism as their religion.

Yes, I know that. I grew up in it. But the situation here is such that some sort of compromise would be the better option.

Oh and they are not forbidden to choose Catholicism. State sanctioned Catholicism that is.

As for "underground Catholicism", does it even exist? Everybody seems to be looking the other way. Anyway the lines are blurry at best. Nobody's paying such a trivial issue much importance.

Even if China feels threatened, does it make it right for China to do this to people?

No but that's politics for you. Like I said, once normal diplomatic relations are opened between the Vatican and the PRC I'm sure they can come to an agreement to many things that are thorny issues today.

I discovered another upside of paranoid killings of a 1000 innocents - doesn't China have a population problem? The Catholic Church is the answer

You realize I used that infamous quote as just a figure of speech right? I even added an "ack" smiley.

 

[plarq]

OK, the Vatican doesn't recongize PRC because PRC doesn't recongize Vatican's role as spiritual leader of Catholics. Many countries hold freedom of religion and still keep their soveignity without intervention of Vatican on Catholic issues. It's just another excuse to suppress Religion Freedom.

I know this would be sharply criticized by Chinese conservatives. But religion freedom allows stupidity, like following a leadership far away. The thing is, if Vatican and PRC ever has diplomatic relationship, it's obligation of Vatican NOT to instigate Chinese Catholics against the authority.

 

[Zarn]

Yes, I know that. I grew up in it. But the situation here is such that some sort of compromise would be the better option.

Oh and they are not forbidden to choose Catholicism. State sanctioned Catholicism that is.

As for "underground Catholicism", does it even exist? Everybody seems to be looking the other way. Anyway the lines are blurry at best. Nobody's paying such a trivial issue much importance.

No but that's politics for you. Like I said, once normal diplomatic relations are opened between the Vatican and the PRC I'm sure they can come to an agreement to many things that are thorny issues today.

Since you are from the Philippines, I would be surprised if you did not understand Catholicism. Why compromise, though? Other then both staying out of one another's business (like that would happen), what other compromise is there? I look at the Chinese choosing the bishops as a defeat. PRC sanctioned Catholicism =/= Catholicism. The Church doesn't get to choose Chinese officials, afterall.

Underground? Looking the other way or not, there are things I will not say.

That is just another reason to hate politics. I honestly think the Church should open up relations. I don't know how willing China would be.