vegetation bonus and the lore

[Novos]

Hiho,

since last patch, the mazatl get greater gains from their jungle. A good chance in my opinion (maybe a bit overpowered, but definitly necessary). But i mind that they have the false benefits. Why not switch the elven bonus with the lizards one? ( for deep jungle; for ancient forest.

explanation:

The elves are not very fertile (they arnt it in no game i ever played, so i throught its the same in FFH/Orbis.) they live very long, indeed but they usually dont reach huge population numbers. Thats why it dont really feels like im playing elves, when i see my 40+ citys in the ancient forests.

in contrats to the lizards. Thats propably the reason, why they use slavery: A single lizard doesnt count that much as eg. a human count. or an elf...

It would fit much better, if the elves could reach a higher intellectual niveau with fewer people (like the mazatl do right now), because they live long enough to deepen their knowledge.

What do you think about it?

 

[ricolikesrice]

completely agree about ancient forests getting +1 instead of +1 to avoid the elven megacities - ahwaric already mentioned this too, so it hopefully makes it in soon.

about mazatl deep jungles i dont know - never having played as or against them
( i normally like lizardmen, but dont like the rather boring mazatl unit art so i keep them out of my games ) i cant judge whether +1 will make them too overpowered or not, but flavourwise it should fit them lizards pretty well i think.

 

[abqaiq93]

I do not agree that +1 commerce is equal to +1 food. Is than an equation that someone has that can better explain this? Maybe I am wrong,.

 

[dot]

Yes, yes, yes.

Maybe Kael would event change that in base FfH. I like the elves. but 40+ cities just seems weird.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I tend to think that Culture would make more sense than either food or commerce, but I don't think that that can be provided in the same way.

 

[ricolikesrice]

I do not agree that +1 commerce is equal to +1 food. Is than an equation that someone has that can better explain this? Maybe I am wrong,.

its not, see the "Improvement Adjustments" thread. 1 ,especially in current orbis, >>> 1 .

however while this would be an elves "nerf", i think the elven civs are both strong enough to take it and still remain very competive.

 

[dot]

I tend to think that Culture would make more sense than either food or commerce, but I don't think that that can be provided in the same way.

Agreed, MC, but I just don't know enough of coding.

 

[abqaiq93]

I will admit that I have only played an elf game for a little bit. I think they are a hard race to start out with. One thing that comes to my mind is the production capacity of the elves. When people say I do not like seeing 40+ size city, remember that this is forty tiles and/or specialists making up that city giving it a pretty big capacity to turn out units, discover tech, generate GP, make money, and develop culture.

If we remove the food and cities for argument sake only get as big as size 20, even with the 1 extra commerce is that going to make it harder when trying to build units, discover techs, generate GP, make money, and develop culture because of the un-worked tiles and unselected specialists that the other 20 missing population bring?

If you are surrounded on all sides by races that have size 40 cities and the elves have size 20 cities how does that make them compete for a culture victory or the tower victory, let alone the conquer victory?

I do think that this is a good idea, I just worry about this will do to the productive capacity of this race.

 

[cypher132]

I'm cypher132 and I support this thread.

 

[Ahwaric]

@abqaiq93
I beg you pardon, but I do not understand. I do not see any way elves are handicaped to other civs. Even if I remove any additional bonuses from ancient forests, these still provide +1 And that is the one that they get on top of any improvement yields other civs get.

Elves now get much bigger cities than other civs, plus they get extra hammers per every tile. That is simply insane. No wonder they do good (or even best) in most of my games.

Regarding mazatl, I can't do anything to not to get criticized . No bonus - makes mazatl handicapped. A slight one - overpowered

But I am going to change a few things again.
Jungle - back to original state _1 food +1 hammer
Deep jungle - just +1 hammer, extra commerce gone. There are other bonuses

Deep forest - probably changed to +1 instead of
Elven -1 food from farms removed
Also, added elven citizens building that gives some nice bonuses but -20% food.

I wonder how much protests will I get regarding that change...

 

[abqaiq93]

Ahwaric,

I was not saying that the elves were overpowered. I was just stating that if they go from having +40 size cities to having +20 size cities that the output capacity lost not having those extra 20 citizens hopefully does not make them weaker than their neighbors.

 

[Opera]

@abqaiq: it's really hard to get such numerous cities for non-FoL-elves anyway, so I think they'll be a bit weaker but not underpowered

@Ahwaric: I'm not sure you should remove the +1 from Deep Jungles... Hmmm, well, duh, I don't know.

 

[Ahwaric]

I'm not sure you should remove the +1 from Deep Jungles... Hmmm, well, duh, I don't know.

You are probably right. Currently jungle for mazatl is equal to forest and deep jungle is slightly better. But we need to remeber that it still gives +1 and mazatl can build any improvement in it... Plus it gives defense and movement bonuses...

I think Mazatl had powerfull economy even before adding any civ-specific yields to jungle/deep jungle. Not as powerfull as in FF, but they are even too powerfull there...

So, what should I do with ancient forest/deep jungle?

My current options are:
Jungle -1 +1
Deep jungle +1 (mazatl only, for all other as jungle)
Forest +1
Ancient forest (all) +1 +1

OR

Jungle -1 +1 (no negative food for mazatl)
Deep jungle +1 +1 (mazatl only, for all other as jungle)
Forest +1
Ancient forest (all) +1 +1

Remeber that civs that specialize in respective features get the feature yield bonus on top on any improvement yield, as they do not remove the feature...
The proposed change to from ancient forest is purely for balancing reasons. Food is better for the flavour but also the most valuable yield. But maybe the change to elves will be enough to keep it at +1 ?

So, what do you think?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

small point: shouldn't deep jungles be worse than jungle for everyone else?

 

[Falc]

There has been talk in the other thread about maybe not allowing Elves to build Farms on forests. I can certainly see that, since I believe a farm needs a wide open space to be useful and forests wouldn't provide that. But I'm bringing it up because it's certainly something that needs to be taken into consideration here as well.

 

[Ahwaric]

small point: shouldn't deep jungles be worse than jungle for everyone else?

They are - give more health penalty and are harder to move in.

There has been talk in the other thread about maybe not allowing Elves to build Farms on forests. I can certainly see that, since I believe a farm needs a wide open space to be useful and forests wouldn't provide that. But I'm bringing it up because it's certainly something that needs to be taken into consideration here as well.

As I have said in the other thread, I see no point in introducing another improvement and replace farm with it. For simplicity, we can still call it farm even if elves are growing shrubs that give plenty of fruits in deep shade of ancient forest. And trust me, there are many plants that grwo quite well in the forest.
I am going to change art of elven farms though. See the one by Freya.

 

[Opera]

You are probably right. Currently jungle for mazatl is equal to forest and deep jungle is slightly better. But we need to remeber that it still gives +1 and mazatl can build any improvement in it... Plus it gives defense and movement bonuses...

Yeah, I overlooked this.

My current options are:
Jungle -1 +1
Deep jungle +1 (mazatl only, for all other as jungle)
Forest +1
Ancient forest (all) +1 +1

OR

Jungle -1 +1 (no negative food for mazatl)
Deep jungle +1 +1 (mazatl only, for all other as jungle)
Forest +1
Ancient forest (all) +1 +1

Go for the first, I say. As I just said, I overlooked some things, so I think that may have no use of their +. To me too they seem already powerful enough.

 

[Hansebenger]

@abqaiq93

Jungle -1 +1
Deep jungle +1 (mazatl only, for all other as jungle)
Forest +1
Ancient forest (all) +1 +1

I would go with that (Or give the deep jungle only +1 , nothing else, but this was no option from you)
The difference between Forest/Ancient Forest and jungle/deep jungle are that you need priests and a FoL as state religion as Elves but as Mazatl you only need some more workers and grasslands (Gibbon Nature III here I come).
I would have started a "Mazatl OP" thread if this issue hadn't come up