I really don't see what's going on here.
The whole Luxury-improvement thing was working out fine and people just abandoned it.
I'm not a big fan of the whole building line thing, feels like too much.
Venice
- Thread starter void_genesis
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I really don't see what's going on here.
The whole Luxury-improvement thing was working out fine and people just abandoned it.
I'm not a big fan of the whole building line thing, feels like too much.
In my opinion, the luxury improvement UI is bland. You already want to improve luxuries. So you just improve luxuries harder. There's not much to it.
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PurpleMentat
Videographer
I really like the building line idea. I'd suggest keeping the Doge's Palace out of it. After all, you are playing the Doge and have a Palace.
The Arsenal, Basilica, Glassworks, and Gondolieri Guild I like.
With Trade, we could have the Zecca of Venice, responsible for the grosso (ducat argenti) that Enrico Dandolo first introduce, for the early Market.
If we want some extra Science at Council or Library, the Biblioteca Marciana could fit.
Venice having a run of unique buildings kind of fits the 'heavy focus on Capital' aspect. I'd like it very much if these could break the population requirements of National Wonders, so you're not forced to buy city states too early to defend them just to get your population up.
The Arsenal, Basilica, Glassworks, and Gondolieri Guild I like.
With Trade, we could have the Zecca of Venice, responsible for the grosso (ducat argenti) that Enrico Dandolo first introduce, for the early Market.
If we want some extra Science at Council or Library, the Biblioteca Marciana could fit.
Venice having a run of unique buildings kind of fits the 'heavy focus on Capital' aspect. I'd like it very much if these could break the population requirements of National Wonders, so you're not forced to buy city states too early to defend them just to get your population up.
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Regardless of what it's called, I feel that it is important for Venice to have an early Merchant specialist since the Market no longer has one.
PurpleMentat
Videographer
I agree. I'd rather see the Market get it's Merchant back in general tho, as it's pretty weak, and the Caravansary is an odd spot to want to build everywhere.
The market merchant may materialize married to the next patch (alliteration steam fell flat half way through).
Let's give this time to stew, but I think it is a solid concept.
We'll need actual numbers/details on the buildings, and we'll need to decide where to put them. Also how many.
G
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I'm thinking economic and naval techs, mostly, and about 1 per era through the Industrial.
All UIs are bland that way. Polder is just an improved farm, Terrace farm is an improved farm that you build on hills, chateau and Encampment are pretty much improved tradingposts.
Maybe I should have explained why the building line is a bad idea.
The concept of multiple uniques in one civ is great, but just doing it for one civ feels extremely unfair to the other civs. I don't think we should deviate any more from the standardization that we have already set with 1 UB/UI/UW and 1 UU.
Technically speaking Venice is already going to deviate from it if we replace their Town with a unique one (which imho the MoV needs), and we should really not go further.
Enrico Swagolo
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Wow, what wonderfully witty would-be wackiness, woven with weedy wine weaving!
(Liking that Market gets Merchant again)
I must agree with Funak though that having one civ have several UBs is a bit unfair to the rest. Chateau feels more like an improved farm than trading post tho
I guess that's true, I was mostly going off the fact that it provides gold and culture and can't be built next to other chateaus, I guess I'm stuck in the old Chateau that didn't provide food.
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The way that I envision the Venetian building chain is that all the Venetian UBs would combine to only be slightly stronger than any other UB. Slightly more to compensate for requiring considerably more hammers to build.
You can replace every unit for a civ with lions if you want to, number of unique isn't hardcapped afaik but I still don't think we should go above the standard setting. It is standard for a reason.
Enrico Swagolo
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Fixed your quote to be superior.
About Chateau, pre-buff it was more of a sidegrade to trading post (on road + route) - more culture, less gold, no production. It got actually inferior if you got Rationalism and stuff that upgraded Trading Routes.
I think Venice could use a UB, but is there a way to reliably force Puppet to build it? Unique line may be interesting but unfair and confusing.
Man, I miss the Great Galleas.
Yeah, probably. It started out like a slightly superior trading post, but ended up with a bunch of culture on it.
You can invest in it from what I've gathered. Puppets also always seems to prioritize unique buildings for some reason.
It'd be a little bit of hackery, but yeah. Essentially Venice would still have its UB as the 'Doge's Palace.' BUT I can add a function that allows you to require a building type (not class) in the city, so it'd be a secret tier of buildings.
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Atlas627
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Oh I see. So these UBs would only be buildable in Venice proper? We could afford to give them some interesting abilities in that case. And these aren't UBs in the traditional sense that modify existing buildings, but are brand new extra buildings?
I know you're in a G-moment now, and you're going to push this through no matter what I say, but honestly this is just not a good idea.
First of all, it breaks the standard model of 3 uniques per civ, even the advanced model of UA UU and UI/UB/UW that we set up in CBP.
Second, this doesn't actually change anything, Venice is still going to have a boring unique wonder in their capital that they have absolutely no control over, the difference is that they are going to have to throw some hammers into making it slightly better every few techs.
Atlas627
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Ok, I can brainstorm some ideas.
I can also see that he's in a G-moment!
However, I disagree completely that this changes nothing.
1) You have to choose to tech to these buildings. That's a decision point we don't have with the Palace alone.
2) You still have full control over their effectiveness because they are capital-only. This means a lot of small decision points (when to build them, how to prepare for them, how to synergize with them). A different UB would be less powerful and would have most of its power in how many you could build, which you have far less control over.
3) Because they don't scale with empire size, we can give them cool and powerful effects while also making them a heavy investment. If they are a heavy investment, then it isn't just "well duh I should build them", its which ones and when. This is even more true because they are buildable only in the only city in which you have control, so you need to very carefully prioritize what to build.
4) It doesn't break the Unique model we have. Venice has a UB that you can invest more hammers into (provided you have the tech) to gain more unique bonuses.
