Venice

[Funak]

How about we scale this back a few pages and just go with one singular unique, instead of this whole 'everything and the kitchen sink'-approach?


The Alternatives I see are:


Unique Building:
Replacing Harbor
Replacing Bank
Replacing Opera house

In case of any of these, the early-game probably need some minor adjustment in the form of a minor buff to the UA, DO NOT worry about that now, that's for later.


Unique Wonder:
Replacing National Monument
Replacing Heroic Epic
Replacing Oxford University

What we need here is a Base building, we don't really care where the building actually unlocks, we can just move it wherever because neither of these wonders are essential to anything.


Unique Improvement:
Buildable on Luxuries
Buildable on coast and not next to each other

Again, the important part here is that the improvement feels unique, we can place it wherever we want tech-wise and we can adjust the UA to make up for any crashed early-game.


Where do we stand?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

How about we scale this back a few pages and just go with one singular unique, instead of this whole 'everything and the kitchen sink'-approach?


The Alternatives I see are:


Unique Building:
Replacing Harbor
Replacing Bank
Replacing Opera house

In case of any of these, the early-game probably need some minor adjustment in the form of a minor buff to the UA, DO NOT worry about that now, that's for later.


Unique Wonder:
Replacing National Monument
Replacing Heroic Epic
Replacing Oxford University

What we need here is a Base building, we don't really care where the building actually unlocks, we can just move it wherever because neither of these wonders are essential to anything.


Unique Improvement:
Buildable on Luxuries
Buildable on coast and not next to each other

Again, the important part here is that the improvement feels unique, we can place it wherever we want tech-wise and we can adjust the UA to make up for any crashed early-game.


Where do we stand?

We could work up a Heroic Epic UNW based on the Travels of Marco Polo. Culture and GAP for revealing tiles or something like that.

 

[Gazebo]

Where do we stand?

I think we're definitely going with the Palace -> choose 1 of 3 UBs route. It's flavorful, flexible, and doesn't require a change to the UA. It's also fairly easy to balance, as you're really just looking at balancing three buildings (if the Doge's palace stays roughly the same yields-wise, minus the spy and tourism bonuses), only one of which you can build per game.

G

 

[Taikavarpu]

Unique buildings are considered dumb, because all your cities are puppets.

Singular unique national wonders are considered too boring.

All attempts to create a unique improvement have hit a wall.

I say we keep the multiwonder-thing we have been planning: Keep the Doge's Palace, but remove the defense bonus and the tourism bonus from Guilds and reduce it's yields to something like +1 each compared to a palace. Make Venetian arsenal unlock from Compass, Ducal mint from Guilds and Glassworks from machinery.

 

[Gazebo]

Unique buildings are considered dumb, because all your cities are puppets.

Singular unique national wonders are considered too boring.

All attempts to create a unique improvement have hit a wall.

I say we keep the multiwonder-thing we have been planning: Keep the Doge's Palace, but remove the defense bonus and the tourism bonus from Guilds and reduce it's yields to something like +1 each compared to a palace. Make Venetian arsenal unlock from Compass, Ducal mint from Guilds and Glassworks from machinery.

That's where we're headed. Key is getting those building attributes on lock-down. We've had some good ideas, but I'm still waiting for a mild consensus.

G

 

[IcyAngel]

Contrarily to Funak, I adore having Venice in my games!

Their puppeting of city-states rings similar to the divide created by ideologies to me.
In a paradigm where the diplomacy game is supremely passive -and oft boring, I must personally say-, the ability of Venice to shake things up and destroy the lead of runaways, to force DoWs and to make you play their game is truly pleasurable.

Double trade-routes isn't remotely as strong as in vanilla -especially now that food has been nerfed-, and I'm not sure it fits so well anymore now that gold has lost its diplomatic and -half of its- production purposes. It's difficult to maintain trade routes while warring too, which appears to be a preferred victory type for Enrico.

The Doge Palace and the MoV are fine imo. I wouldn't mind if the first was changed, because it does fall off very quickly. The Palace changes could be weaker and not occupy a unique spot, which would leave place for a real UB. Don't know how Gazebo would feel about that, though.

edit: I like Taikavarpu's general idea for the Palace.

 

[Gazebo]

The Palace changes could be weaker and not occupy a unique spot, which would leave place for a real UB. Don't know how Gazebo would feel about that, though.

Not possible to edit a building for a civ without taking up a UB slot.

G

 

[Funak]

I think we're definitely going with the Palace -> choose 1 of 3 UBs route. It's flavorful, flexible, and doesn't require a change to the UA. It's also fairly easy to balance, as you're really just looking at balancing three buildings (if the Doge's palace stays roughly the same yields-wise, minus the spy and tourism bonuses), only one of which you can build per game.

I'm going to just ignore the fact that you're saying it's 'fairly easy to balance' when there really haven't been anything even resembling balance going on in this thread, but honestly the question that I'm asking you is "Why?"

Why should Venice get some kind of unique three in one treatment?

Why should the palace stay, when the whole argument from the start was getting rid of the palace, because it's not interesting and it's creating way too big of an early lead?

Why would the palace stay the same way it is while another UB is added on top of it? The palace pretty much destroys the early-game for all other civs in the game by snagging all the wonders, I thought the whole idea here was to get rid of this ridiculous early super-building and replacing it with something interesting.

Also, why do you get to decide what we're definitely going with? :/

 

[Gazebo]

I'm going to just ignore the fact that you're saying it's 'fairly easy to balance' when there really haven't been anything even resembling balance going on in this thread, but honestly the question that I'm asking you is "Why?"

Why should Venice get some kind of unique three in one treatment?

Why should the palace stay, when the whole argument from the start was getting rid of the palace, because it's not interesting and it's creating way too big of an early lead?

Why would the palace stay the same way it is while another UB is added on top of it? The palace pretty much destroys the early-game for all other civs in the game by snagging all the wonders, I thought the whole idea here was to get rid of this ridiculous early super-building and replacing it with something interesting.

Also, why do you get to decide what we're definitely going with? :/

Of all the ideas presented, the one with the most vocal support was the 1->3 unique national wonder(s) model.

The Doge's Palace, stripped of most bonuses except for a modest increase in yields, acts as a gateway for Venice's actual unique building, one that shapes how Venice will play from the mid-game on. Balancing that building (you only get one of three) is not too difficult, given said restrictions.

I haven't decided anything - I presented an idea, it met with broad approval, and all other ideas have met stiff resistance or have proven inoperable/uninteresting.

G

 

[IcyAngel]

Not possible to edit a building for a civ without taking up a UB slot.

G

Ah! how restrictive.

I'm going to just ignore the fact that you're saying it's 'fairly easy to balance' when there really haven't been anything even resembling balance going on in this thread, but honestly the question that I'm asking you is "Why?"

Why should Venice get some kind of unique three in one treatment?

Why should the palace stay, when the whole argument from the start was getting rid of the palace, because it's not interesting and it's creating way too big of an early lead?

Why would the palace stay the same way it is while another UB is added on top of it? The palace pretty much destroys the early-game for all other civs in the game by snagging all the wonders, I thought the whole idea here was to get rid of this ridiculous early super-building and replacing it with something interesting.

Also, why do you get to decide what we're definitely going with? :/

Venice's ability to snag wonders is limited by technology, as it is for every other civ.
You cannot snag "all the wonders", not even close. If you set your mind on a specific wonder -or more, if they are adjacent in the tree and you are willing to ignore other techs- in the ancient and early classical, sure, you can almost certainly get it.

Considering how that's more or less all the UB does -does well-, I don't see it as OP at all.

 

[Funak]

Of all the ideas presented, the one with the most vocal support was the 1->3 unique national wonder(s) model.

The Doge's Palace, stripped of most bonuses except for a modest increase in yields, acts as a gateway for Venice's actual unique building, one that shapes how Venice will play from the mid-game on. Balancing that building (you only get one of three) is not too difficult, given said restrictions.

I haven't decided anything - I presented an idea, it met with broad approval, and all other ideas have met stiff resistance or have proven inoperable/uninteresting.

But why the special treatment?

Naturally if you ask someone if they want one unique building or 4 unique buildings, they are going to pick 4 every time, that's just how people work.
If Venice gets to have 4 unique buildings, why not Carthage? Why not Byzantium, why not America?

Why the specialization? Nothing else in the game works that way, you're dealt something that's good at some things and you deal with it the best way you can, that's the basis of civilization.

You've not decided on anything, yet you think we're definitely going with this? I really don't see how this have gotten any more approval than any of the other ideas, it's just a bunch of people throwing suggestions, which is easy because by design your UB is going to do everything.

Venice's ability to snag wonders is limited by technology, as it is for every other civ.
You cannot snag "all the wonders", not even close. If you set your mind on a specific wonder -or more, if they are adjacent in the tree and you are willing to ignore other techs- in the ancient and early classical, sure, you can almost certainly get it.

It's limited by culture, technology and hammers, 3 things the Venetian Palace gives they bonuses in, not counting the fact that they don't have to bother building Settlers and for that reason have a lot of extra hammers around.

 

[Gazebo]

But why the special treatment?

Naturally if you ask someone if they want one unique building or 4 unique buildings, they are going to pick 4 every time, that's just how people work.
If Venice gets to have 4 unique buildings, why not Carthage? Why not Byzantium, why not America?

Why the specialization? Nothing else in the game works that way, you're dealt something that's good at some things and you deal with it the best way you can, that's the basis of civilization.

You've not decided on anything, yet you think we're definitely going with this? I really don't see how this have gotten any more approval than any of the other ideas, it's just a bunch of people throwing suggestions, which is easy because by design your UB is going to do everything.

That's a false argument. Venice is the only civ that can't settle cities or manage them outside of its capital. As a result, any UB it gets will ever only be an active player choice once, and there really won't be a choice, as it'll just be 'build that one building as soon as it unlocks.' Giving Venice the option of 3 UBs to choose from provides an element of customization and specialization tailored to Venice's UA. A UI is out of the question for reasons noted above – lack of control over initial spawn point and the spawn points of CSs makes a UI too RNG dependent. Portugal avoids this by having other elements of its kit – mainly city settlement – to compensate. Venice would not have this luxury.

G

 

[Atlas627]

I think we're definitely going with the Palace -> choose 1 of 3 UBs route. It's flavorful, flexible, and doesn't require a change to the UA. It's also fairly easy to balance, as you're really just looking at balancing three buildings (if the Doge's palace stays roughly the same yields-wise, minus the spy and tourism bonuses), only one of which you can build per game.

G

Do we want to move the spy stuff to one of the choices? It seems like a great fit for the Great Council (the generic building), since it doesn't seem to factor into which building you'd choose. Same with +GP%, which helps all playstyles.

Unique buildings are considered dumb, because all your cities are puppets.

Singular unique national wonders are considered too boring.

All attempts to create a unique improvement have hit a wall.

I say we keep the multiwonder-thing we have been planning: Keep the Doge's Palace, but remove the defense bonus and the tourism bonus from Guilds and reduce it's yields to something like +1 each compared to a palace. Make Venetian arsenal unlock from Compass, Ducal mint from Guilds and Glassworks from machinery.

I believe our current plan is to make the later wonders mutually exclusive and to make the "Doge's Palace" buildable at some point rather than a Palace replacement.

Contrarily to Funak, I adore having Venice in my games!

Their puppeting of city-states rings similar to the divide created by ideologies to me.
In a paradigm where the diplomacy game is supremely passive -and oft boring, I must personally say-, the ability of Venice to shake things up and destroy the lead of runaways, to force DoWs and to make you play their game is truly pleasurable.

Double trade-routes isn't remotely as strong as in vanilla -especially now that food has been nerfed-, and I'm not sure it fits so well anymore now that gold has lost its diplomatic and -half of its- production purposes. It's difficult to maintain trade routes while warring too, which appears to be a preferred victory type for Enrico.

The Doge Palace and the MoV are fine imo. I wouldn't mind if the first was changed, because it does fall off very quickly. The Palace changes could be weaker and not occupy a unique spot, which would leave place for a real UB. Don't know how Gazebo would feel about that, though.

edit: I like Taikavarpu's general idea for the Palace.

I agree completely with what you've said except for the part about the Doge's Palace being fine. There's no decision around the current version at all.

Why should Venice get some kind of unique three in one treatment?

Why should the palace stay, when the whole argument from the start was getting rid of the palace, because it's not interesting and it's creating way too big of an early lead?

Why would the palace stay the same way it is while another UB is added on top of it? The palace pretty much destroys the early-game for all other civs in the game by snagging all the wonders, I thought the whole idea here was to get rid of this ridiculous early super-building and replacing it with something interesting.

Venice is already unique, as the only civ who can't found or control cities. This makes a UI or UB have only two decision points: the founding of the capital (wooo) and teching to the bonus.

I don't think we ARE keeping the Palace. What we're doing is moving it (so now you have to unlock and build it), changing its bonuses (to not be so incredibly frontloaded), and then giving it a 1-of-3 upgrade later (to give some actual choice in the matter).

That's a false argument. Venice is the only civ that can't settle cities or manage them outside of its capital. As a result, any UB it gets will ever only be an active player choice once, and there really won't be a choice, as it'll just be 'build that one building as soon as it unlocks.' Giving Venice the option of 3 UBs to choose from provides an element of customization and specialization tailored to Venice's UA. A UI is out of the question for reasons noted above – lack of control over initial spawn point and the spawn points of CSs makes a UI too RNG dependent. Portugal avoids this by having other elements of its kit – mainly city settlement – to compensate. Venice would not have this luxury.

G

This.


Anyway, I'll try at this again with a new version. Tweak numbers as necessary, of course.

Great Council - Unlocks at Writing (early but not too early, still thematic), +2 of all base yields (Venice will still need help early game, and the other bonuses on this building don't do much early), +15% GP production (generic flexible boost), Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city (necessary when this will tend to be the greatest city in the game and doesn't belong anywhere else). Choose one of 3 upgrades at Guilds.

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +10% Production in city, Unlocks Great Galeass, +6 defense in city, naval units built here get +1 movement +10% strength called "Venetian Craftsmanship"

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (+5 science for filling with own works, 1 of each), GP Improvements get +2food +2 tourism in city

Ducat Mint - Merchant specialist slot, Doubles luxuries in city, receive 1 vote per 100 gpt capping at 5, +3 gold to both parties for trade routes to/from this city


Make the MoV Town unique (+1f, +1h, +2g? Remember they don't get the road bonuses) and don't let any puppets build the UB without investment as well.

Is this closer?

 

[Gazebo]

Do we want to move the spy stuff to one of the choices? It seems like a great fit for the Great Council (the generic building), since it doesn't seem to factor into which building you'd choose. Same with +GP%, which helps all playstyles.



I believe our current plan is to make the later wonders mutually exclusive and to make the "Doge's Palace" buildable at some point rather than a Palace replacement.



I agree completely with what you've said except for the part about the Doge's Palace being fine. There's no decision around the current version at all.



Venice is already unique, as the only civ who can't found or control cities. This makes a UI or UB have only two decision points: the founding of the capital (wooo) and teching to the bonus.

I don't think we ARE keeping the Palace. What we're doing is moving it (so now you have to unlock and build it), changing its bonuses (to not be so incredibly frontloaded), and then giving it a 1-of-3 upgrade later (to give some actual choice in the matter).



This.


Anyway, I'll try at this again with a new version. Tweak numbers as necessary, of course.

Great Council - Unlocks at Writing (early but not too early, still thematic), +2 of all base yields (Venice will still need help early game, and the other bonuses on this building don't do much early), +15% GP production (generic flexible boost), Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city (necessary when this will tend to be the greatest city in the game and doesn't belong anywhere else). Choose one of 3 upgrades at Guilds.

Venetian Arsenal - Engineer specialist slot, +10% Production in city, Unlocks Great Galeass, +6 defense in city, naval units built here get +1 movement +10% strength called "Venetian Craftsmanship"

Murano Glassworks - Artist specialist slot, 2 Art/Artifact slots (+5 science for filling with own works, 1 of each), GP Improvements get +2food +2 tourism in city

Ducat Mint - Merchant specialist slot, Doubles luxuries in city, receive 1 vote per 100 gpt capping at 5, +3 gold to both parties for trade routes to/from this city


Make the MoV Town unique (+1f, +1h, +2g? Remember they don't get the road bonuses) and don't let any puppets build the UB without investment as well.

Is this closer?

We can't readily unlock the Great Galleass (I don't think) without a rework of the minorcivgift system. I'll take a look, but can't guarantee it. Also, a UB giving a UU feels too strong, IMO. Take that away and boost production by 5%. Solid.

The Ducat Mint doubling ability stacks with the East India Co., and can't (they'll overlap, giving you no bonus, as it is a bool). Shift the GP improvement bonus down, and then give the glassworks 4 copies of the ceramics (glass if using More Luxuries) resource for trade.

G

 

[Funak]

Great Council - Unlocks at Writing (early but not too early, still thematic), +2 of all base yields (Venice will still need help early game, and the other bonuses on this building don't do much early), +15% GP production (generic flexible boost), Advanced Spy Actions can't be taken in this city (necessary when this will tend to be the greatest city in the game and doesn't belong anywhere else). Choose one of 3 upgrades at Guilds.

I'm not even going to read the other buildings because if I do someone is going to yell at me, but what is this Great Council wonder supposed to replace? You can't just make a unique wonder out of nowhere, it has to replace something, anything else would be pure insanity.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm not even going to read the other buildings because if I do someone is going to yell at me, but what is this Great Council wonder supposed to replace? You can't just make a unique wonder out of nowhere, it has to replace something, anything else would be pure insanity.

My assumption is that it would replace the National Epic or Monument, given the GPP%, with its earlier timing simply being a bonus.

G

 

[Funak]

My assumption is that it would replace the National Epic or Monument, given the GPP%, with its earlier timing simply being a bonus.

I'm asking because it remained unclear. Assumptions are dangerous.

But I'm not crazy here right? Having it not replace anything would be madness, right?

 

[Gazebo]

I'm asking because it remained unclear. Assumptions are dangerous.

But I'm not crazy here right? Having it not replace anything would be madness, right?

Madness? No. OP? Yeah. You'd essentially be giving Venice a free wonder every game. Replacement UB for National Epic/Monument/Heroic Epic makes sense, though.

G

 

[Atlas627]

We can't readily unlock the Great Galleass (I don't think) without a rework of the minorcivgift system. I'll take a look, but can't guarantee it. Also, a UB giving a UU feels too strong, IMO. Take that away and boost production by 5%. Solid.

The Ducat Mint doubling ability stacks with the East India Co., and can't (they'll overlap, giving you no bonus, as it is a bool). Shift the GP improvement bonus down, and then give the glassworks 4 copies of the ceramics (glass if using More Luxuries) resource for trade.

G

The previous version you ok'd had those things!

Anyway, if we take away the Great Galeass then +5% more production seems fine to me.

For the other bonuses, I'm trying to be simultaneously thematic and enhance gameplay. The point of double luxuries is to help Venice get *A* monopoly. If it doesn't stack with East India Company then remove it. The GP improvement buff is on the cultural building because that's the "tall/tourism victory" building. The Ducat Mint is trying to be the "diplomatic/economic/flexible" building.

I would rather find some other bonus for the Ducat Mint if it loses the double luxuries. How about investments in this city are 15% more effective(additive) or something?

I'm not even going to read the other buildings because if I do someone is going to yell at me, but what is this Great Council wonder supposed to replace? You can't just make a unique wonder out of nowhere, it has to replace something, anything else would be pure insanity.

Someone would yell at you because you throw in snide comments like this when other people are having a productive conversation.

My assumption is that it would replace the National Epic or Monument, given the GPP%, with its earlier timing simply being a bonus.

G

You ok'd previous versions that weren't replacing anything!

National Epic seems a good one, but then it should be +25% GP at minimum.

 

[Gazebo]

The previous version you ok'd had those things!

Anyway, if we take away the Great Galeass then +5% more production seems fine to me.

For the other bonuses, I'm trying to be simultaneously thematic and enhance gameplay. The point of double luxuries is to help Venice get *A* monopoly. If it doesn't stack with East India Company then remove it. The GP improvement buff is on the cultural building because that's the "tall/tourism victory" building. The Ducat Mint is trying to be the "diplomatic/economic/flexible" building.

I would rather find some other bonus for the Ducat Mint if it loses the double luxuries. How about investments in this city are 15% more effective(additive) or something?



Someone would yell at you because you throw in snide comments like this when other people are having a productive conversation.



You ok'd previous versions that weren't replacing anything!

National Epic seems a good one, but then it should be +25% GP at minimum.

I ok'd them as being possible, but I didn't say they were balanced! Missed the doubling luxuries element, otherwise I would have pointed that out sooner.

G