Although, I would disagree, Glassworks does need a buff. Unlike the other two, Glasswork doesn't have a "global" effect except providing tourism.
Because... this
should look like a global change such as
Venice
- Thread starter void_genesis
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Although, I would disagree, Glassworks does need a buff. Unlike the other two, Glasswork doesn't have a "global" effect except providing tourism.
Because... this
should look like a global change such as
Atlas627
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Personally, I never see myself picking the Arsenale with the current setup. Why produce 15% more things when I can take the Rialto District and buy those things 10% cheaper, plus other effects? Also, I like the Murano Glassworks the most. That's a lot of tourism! And its a lot of fun to try and get the most out of it.
If we make the +production% only apply to military units, we can make it much stronger. Like +40% when constructing military units, or something.
Alternatively, make the 10% cheaper purchase something else.
Edit: Also, tourism has global effects, but the Murano buff is exclusively focused on the capital. That's different from the other 2, and that's a good thing. Arsenale creates a military force to move elsewhere, Rialto gets votes, Murano only works in the capital.
If we make the +production% only apply to military units, we can make it much stronger. Like +40% when constructing military units, or something.
Alternatively, make the 10% cheaper purchase something else.
Edit: Also, tourism has global effects, but the Murano buff is exclusively focused on the capital. That's different from the other 2, and that's a good thing. Arsenale creates a military force to move elsewhere, Rialto gets votes, Murano only works in the capital.
I made a venice cultural win (emperor) at early modern (my earliest victory from now).
I had more than 15 GP & 3 villages in my capital. Glasswork was ~8% of my flat tourism.
With 100% growth (from trade routes), the +2N is really nice.
i like the 'occ' flavor of the glasswork.
I think tourism is generated (in standard size) more by trade routes than by flat tourism. (i didn't know if trade-tourism is computed from culture or tourism).
I had more than 15 GP & 3 villages in my capital. Glasswork was ~8% of my flat tourism.
With 100% growth (from trade routes), the +2N is really nice.
i like the 'occ' flavor of the glasswork.
I think tourism is generated (in standard size) more by trade routes than by flat tourism. (i didn't know if trade-tourism is computed from culture or tourism).
Atlas627
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Trade tourism is calculated from Culture, but I'm not sure if the tourism multipliers affect it.
Either way, I was producing WAY more of my tourism from working tiles around the capital.
When looking at the 3 buildings together, I see nearly no reason to choose the Arsenale. The Rialto provides something you can't get elsewhere: votes. If you expand mostly through taking CS, its a good building! The Glassworks provides something you can't get elsewhere: TONS of tourism. This is great if you stay small with only 1 or 2 cities.
The Arsenale...meh? +15% production seems like nothing when I could get -10% gold cost AND votes (and trade buffs). If I can't make use of the trade buffs because I'm doing total war I guess this is preferrable, but the Glassworks also provides a ton of tourism...so I guess if I ALSO wanted to use my GP to improve other cities or for bulbs then I guess I'd pick the Arsenale.
So the Arsenale is the undertuned pantheon that only gets use if the others are taken?
Can we change the +15% production to +50% production of naval units or something? Something more dramatic, but also niche to make it not overpowering? Alternatively, if possible, improve the Naval Unit Upgrade? Something more unique than movement or CS would be good, like "heals at double speed" (Arsenale was famous for quick repair) and "+20% CS on Coast" (Venetian ships were only powerful in the Mediterranean).
Basically, the buildings might be balanced, but the Arsenale is so boring compared to the other 2 that I can never be bothered to pick it.
Either way, I was producing WAY more of my tourism from working tiles around the capital.
When looking at the 3 buildings together, I see nearly no reason to choose the Arsenale. The Rialto provides something you can't get elsewhere: votes. If you expand mostly through taking CS, its a good building! The Glassworks provides something you can't get elsewhere: TONS of tourism. This is great if you stay small with only 1 or 2 cities.
The Arsenale...meh? +15% production seems like nothing when I could get -10% gold cost AND votes (and trade buffs). If I can't make use of the trade buffs because I'm doing total war I guess this is preferrable, but the Glassworks also provides a ton of tourism...so I guess if I ALSO wanted to use my GP to improve other cities or for bulbs then I guess I'd pick the Arsenale.
So the Arsenale is the undertuned pantheon that only gets use if the others are taken?
Can we change the +15% production to +50% production of naval units or something? Something more dramatic, but also niche to make it not overpowering? Alternatively, if possible, improve the Naval Unit Upgrade? Something more unique than movement or CS would be good, like "heals at double speed" (Arsenale was famous for quick repair) and "+20% CS on Coast" (Venetian ships were only powerful in the Mediterranean).
Basically, the buildings might be balanced, but the Arsenale is so boring compared to the other 2 that I can never be bothered to pick it.
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How about "1 free Galleas per 2 City-states in the game upon completion" for the Arsenale.
Atlas627
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Galleases can't enter Ocean, so I can't see someone making use of them. Did you also mean in addition to the current Arsenale? That would definitely be too much power I think.
Atlas627
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I'd like to make an amendment to my previous analysis.
I finally had a game where the Arsenale seemed like the right choice. I was expanding to CS early so I used my GP to improve those cities, the AI filled in my continent so I wanted to conquer, and my religion took over my whole 4-player continent so I was going to have plenty of votes anyway.
So yay, it has a niche! It still didn't feel all that good though. I still think we should change the unit upgrade if possible to make it more unique.
Oh also my puppets keep building all the Guilds. Its really annoying because I have so many things to build in my capital and I don't want to juggle a queue with the Guilds sitting in there all the time.
Puppets should only build NWs if you invest in them. Is this doable? If not, I would rather have puppets unable to build the last of any NW. If that's also not doable, then no NWs in puppets is preferable to puppets stealing NWs without permission.
I finally had a game where the Arsenale seemed like the right choice. I was expanding to CS early so I used my GP to improve those cities, the AI filled in my continent so I wanted to conquer, and my religion took over my whole 4-player continent so I was going to have plenty of votes anyway.
So yay, it has a niche! It still didn't feel all that good though. I still think we should change the unit upgrade if possible to make it more unique.
Oh also my puppets keep building all the Guilds. Its really annoying because I have so many things to build in my capital and I don't want to juggle a queue with the Guilds sitting in there all the time.
Puppets should only build NWs if you invest in them. Is this doable? If not, I would rather have puppets unable to build the last of any NW. If that's also not doable, then no NWs in puppets is preferable to puppets stealing NWs without permission.
Sun Pope
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Atlas627
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You can only build 3 in CBP. I believe it was unlimited in vanilla?
Sun Pope
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Vanilla was 1 per player. If it is only 3 per player, then yes, they should not be able to build them unless you invest or something. I think the problem is that these guilds are located in the buildings section of the production popup instead of the wonder section, where heroic epic, nat college etc are
Atlas627
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Oh yes it was 1 per player in vanilla, silly me.
Either way, my point stands.
Any opinions on the rest of it?
Takagi Hiro
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Just gonna say that I'm loving how Venice has been handled, giving the player the choice between three powerful specialties. However, I also feel as though the Arsenale di Venezia is underwhelming. When standing up to the other two, it just seems lacking; I'd only take it if I had built the Great Lighthouse, was pursuing domination, AND was planning to push through Imperialism for all the power/movement stacking. Otherwise, I feel like I'd get so much more use out of the Rialto District. Venice is more fun than ever, but I feel like it needs a bit more tweaking.
Atlas627
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I agree, we should tweak it. Have you looked at the suggestions I gave earlier on this page?
Takagi Hiro
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I have, yeah, but I don't know which direction is right to go with it. I feel like it should definitely have something to do with naval units, though, particularly the galleass. I could definitely get behind losing the base +15% production for something else; your idea with the +50% for naval units seemed interesting, but then I was also thinking something about letting their galleasses cross ocean. It seems a bit awkward, but when you think about how tight navigation is with inland seas, especially in the game I've got going, something like that could make all the difference. Yet, then again, thinking that once they get range, they're basically immune... well, it shuts down this idea. I just don't quite know.
Does the Arsenale improve units already built out of the city? That would be convenient, but I doubt it does.
Atlas627
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I think it only improves future units.
The +15% production is basically the same thing as the Rialto's -10% gold cost.
The upgrade for the naval units is pretty...meh?
Basically, if I'm conquering the world, this boost doesn't do much. And if I'm not conquering the world, this boost doesn't help me get started on that.
Gothic_Empire
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Just winging a thought out there:
Is there a way we could make it so that Great Galleas able to move on shore OR adjacent to shore? This would make them a more powerful, and more strategically interesting unit.
Is there a way we could make it so that Great Galleas able to move on shore OR adjacent to shore? This would make them a more powerful, and more strategically interesting unit.
Takagi Hiro
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That's what I figured (though I do wish you didn't have to build units from scratch to get bonuses like this, Morale, Alhambra/BG XP, etc... I usually give my inferiors to city-states). I would have honestly been more interested in going that path had the promotion been thrown onto all of my existing dromons; the worked up experience comes off as wasted if I've got to construct galleasses from scratch.
And yeah, either the upgrade needs to be more significant, or the extra production for naval units could go a long way. I mean, you should see my Venice with the Murano Glassworks; it has twelve GP improvements settled as of turn 194, six of which are towns. Took Mastery, Pagodas, Knowledge Through Devotion, full Tradition, the left side of Authority, and the right side of Aesthetics... Got a monopoly on citrus, four in workable borders. Two villages as of present, but more on the way. Hell, the one town I settled on citrus has 11f/3p/8g/4c/3f/2t for yields. It's so awesome, I'm just going to paste a screenie. The best part of this to me is that I'm stepping up to Emperor difficulty, and I'm just rocking it, in my opinion. Still, that massive Sweden is on a conquering spree, and I fear I'm the next target.
http://pasteboard.co/fuAvF4K.png
(You'll notice my citizen count isn't matching my population; I got smacked with a hurricane and didn't lose my citizens, as I've mentioned as a bug earlier before. I'm actually 99.9% certain that it's because I lock all of my citizens; when they weren't locked in another game, I'd actually lost the shown amount.)
Getting off track here, as I tend to do, but the point is... how could the Arsenale stack up to something like this? Venice never seems to want to stop growing with all of the food. You can make some awesome things happen with the Rialto District, too, and I was seriously tempted since I'd built the Colossus (but was swayed out of this route when I noticed Venice is hooked to an inland sea and not an ocean), but a simple +15% production and a minor combat buff is hardly worth building the Arsenale for.
The Great Galleass isn't even a Venetian unit anymore, so I'm not quite sure if this belongs here... but at the same time, I don't even know what you're asking, so I can't answer. "On shore?"
Gothic_Empire
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Takagi Hiro said:
Uh, whoa. This might be a fairly big exploit / bug then, since Gazebo said that the hurricane uses the starvation code. Can you starve off a citizen while locking down everyone? If so, the climb from pop 1 to pop 2 is significantly shorter than any other climb. It could make certain kinds of city locations easy to cheese into very, very high populations.
I thought one of their national wonders let them build the great galleass again? My mistake.
What I was trying to ask was if there was a way to let a ship go into COAST (I meant coast, not shore. Doh!) or into Ocean tiles that are adjacent to coast, but not any further. It would make for an interesting classical / renaissance ship that would be able to group in more effective attacks on most coast lines, and avoid a lot of retaliation.
I think the consensus is that the Arsenale needs a slight buff to its on-city bonuses to give it more flexible appeal.
G
G
Atlas627
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I think that is the exact opposite of what needs to happen, and I'm not sure where you see a consensus at all.
The Rialto District is the flexible one. It gives gold if there's anyone you aren't at war with, lets you spend gold easier, get more MoVs, and have votes (which are inherently flexible).
The Murano Glassworks is better the fewer cities you have, because it boosts the capital significantly more than it boosts any other city (you'll want to place your GP Improvements here, leaving your other cities bare).
The Arsenale di Venezia is supposed to be for military and conquering. +15% production isnt really any better than the -10% gold cost and is also pretty negligible overall, especially since one of Venice's strengths is buying units in all the puppets, bypassing and reducing the effectiveness of the Arsenale. The naval upgrade itself is good but not interesting.
There's many ways to improve the Arsenale, but just buffing it is probably not going to work. And trying to make it more flexible is probably not the way to go.
