Vincentz Infinite Projects [VIP MOD]

[JosEPh_II]

So in this version if you build a 3rd city by 860BC and it's more than 4 tiles from the 2nd city expect to be bled dry with maint. cost.(Only Civic that is not starting is Organized religion as I research Monotheism 1st. )

I had 40% research with 4 gold/turn and very low treasury ~10 gold. I built a Missionary and scout before him. as they are traveling to the 2nd city I found the 3rd (it had a hill with gold, river and coast and camel). Next turn the Missionary is gone. I'm at 0% research and a -10 gold/turn. I look in the finance screen and City maint has jumped to 36 gold while I only have 26 gold from tiles worked and taxes. At 760 BC I have lost every unit but 1 each defender in each city. Capital is on Barter, research slider is still at 0% and I'm still running at -7gold/turn.

This is on Prince difficulty level. I think maybe maint. costs from starting Civics are too much. You do not have much in the way of gold producing builds this early in the game.

Now I realize this is my 1st game in a while but I don't remember v88 with this much MC early game.

I expect to see my 3rd city lose it's lone defender and then what? Do I abandon that city? Will it be enough to save my 2nd city?

So there is my initial impression my friend.

EDIT: It's now 60AD I'm still in strike. And my 2nd city was taken by hordes of barbarians (had Javelineer instead of Archer as defender). Had a small reprive when I got a GP and used him for a GA. Accumulated 140 gold before the GA expired, teched Trade, but it didn't help. I have 2 cities and I'm stuck at -4gold/turn in Strike. Barbs are pouring in and it's just a matter of how many click EoT's before it's over. This one is cooked and burnt.

Too much MC and Not enough early Gold producing buildings or techs.

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

@ Joseph

In order to create an empire (3 cities ) you need a capital (Palace) and a Government Center (Throne Room), both can be build with Masonry Tech.
That will pretty much take care of maintenance.

Im thinking about making a short "Lets Play" video to introduce players to the new features (Guilds/Palace/Movement/Visibility/Improvements etc etc), as many of them will be unknown to new players.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I couldn't survive till Masonry tech.

My impression is that to you Must follow a Very Set path in the Tech tree. If this is the case (and sure seems to be) then this will limit how you can play the mod. I'm not sure this is a good thing on 1st impressions.

One oddball thing I did notice is the little balloons for wild animals, barbs, even GPs don't go away the next turn. They last for 5 to 6 turns sometimes more.

JosEPh

 

[Daft73]

Spoiler :

I couldn't survive till Masonry tech.

My impression is that to you Must follow a Very Set path in the Tech tree. If this is the case (and sure seems to be) then this will limit how you can play the mod. I'm not sure this is a good thing on 1st impressions.

One oddball thing I did notice is the little balloons for wild animals, barbs, even GPs don't go away the next turn. They last for 5 to 6 turns sometimes more.

JosEPh

Bummer Joseph, I actually encountered the exact opposite. Playing as Mangammal (ind,org)..I had a surplus 0f +1/+4gold pt. I spread out slowly letting my economy settle,(built palace and throne room), afterwards I built up 2 settlers and set them on there way. After that I had 10-15 turns at -1/-4 gold, but I was easily able to keep stable.
Screenie at bottom shows current situation. Unfortunately I also started on an island
Game settings:
VIP Perfect World
Huge
Ancient
Marathon 4000K
old world

Spoiler :

@ Joseph

In order to create an empire (3 cities ) you need a capital (Palace) and a Government Center (Throne Room), both can be build with Masonry Tech.
That will pretty much take care of maintenance.

Im thinking about making a short "Lets Play" video to introduce players to the new features (Guilds/Palace/Movement/Visibility/Improvements etc etc), as many of them will be unknown to new players.

That would be nice, always good to see a LP

 

[Daft73]

One oddball thing I did notice is the little balloons for wild animals, barbs, even GPs don't go away the next turn. They last for 5 to 6 turns sometimes more.

JosEPh

I noticed this as well, kinda gets cluttered.

 

[SableAntelope]

I failed miserably the first three attempts because of over expanding and not being able to pay.

Then the fourth attempt I held my own for a while and tried to expand and dug my own grave again.

This time on try five I am now in turn 600+ and have 35 cities, some founded and some conquered, and making decent gold with science on on 60%.
I did specifically place cities when I expanded early on in gold producing areas.

Playing India, with Nanye-hi each time.

I find it a little confusing that it might say +1200 by your money amount in the corner and yet when the turns rolls you actually loose cash. I didn't notice for several turns my treasure was dwindling because I saw the + number and assumed all was well.
I think that might be because it takes guild costs out at the end of the turn?

Just wanted to add that the lingering little balloons don't really annoy me until wartime and then it's like being haunted by the ghost of every enemy unit for the next hundred years. *L*

Oh and I really dig the progressive roads, like path, road, highways, etc. That's a very cool feature.

 

[SableAntelope]

Just one other thing- I did switch to pacifism and despite the civics screen promise of 39 million+ happy per religion in the city it worked normally in application.
Haha, I'm kind of disappointed, I wanted to see my people explode with sheer millionfold joy.

 

[vincentz]

@ Joseph
Im not home atm, but if I recall correctly, then it requires Stonetools, Mining and Masonry to be able to build Palace/Throneroom, which are all lowcost techs, so it shouldnt be a huge set path.
(besides, its not THAT bad to start out as a city state.)
Together with Animal Husbandry and Pottery which opens up for settlers, its in second collumn of techs to set up an "empire". I actually tried to spread alot of stuff in the first ancient techs, so a rush and beeline would maybe still be effective, but at a cost (you can rush pottery and animal husbandry, but in the end you have no idea where all the resources are, so the cities would be placed "blindly"), same as weapon rushes. They are just not as effective, and if you not have a palace (capital) capturing another civ might be costly, and not as efficient (exploit) as in vanilla.

@ Joseph and Daft73
I increased the lenght that messages (and indicators) where shown, coz often when getting into a new turn later on, and it tells you, you were attacked, or a new resource spawned or a enemy unit is closeby, by the time I got "into" my turn, those indicators would be gone. But I agree that they are hanging on a weee bit to long and will reduce them to maybe half of what is now.

@ Daft73
Turn 768 - Foodrefining?
I havent tried marathon yet, its pretty hardcore mode even in vanilla, and in VIP i think normal=epic and epic=marathon, so marathon is a double marathon.

just found this "500 for normal, 750 for epic, 1500 for marathon." for bts
in vip its 1000 normal, 2000 epic and 4000 marathon.

@ SableAntelope
I have not come across the +1200 gold/turn and still loosing money, but I will try to keep an eye out for it. F2 income/expenses screen should include the Guilds/corps/maintenance/taxes/unitcost etc, and that is what should be shown in top corner, so it sounds very strange (except if you have tons of enemy spies stealing gold from you every turn which sounds higly unlikely).
About the pacifism +happy for every religion bug. I did notice it, I didnt test it (I was afraid my computer would explode and rainbows and unicorns and pure happiness would emerge from the blast), but I'm pretty sure its a recent bug. I might just change the text in civic screen if the effect was as intended (+1 happy for every religion in city).

 

[j_mie6]

I might have to try this mod out! I have actually never played it before but it always looked pretty interesting have you had much time to play around with the historical cities yet?

also a LP would be pretty cool

 

[vincentz]

I failed miserably the first three attempts because of over expanding and not being able to pay.

I guess (without sounding like dr.evil or such) that this is intended. We have all played BtS to death, but do you guys remember how it was in the beginning. And looking back wasnt it some of the best part of civ? Trial and error.
The idea about VIP mod, is that it should be a new "discovery", it shouldnt just be a lean back experience, yet it should still feel like bts (expanded). The new movementpoint system and visibility are two other features that should open up new strategies and tactics.

I might have to try this mod out! I have actually never played it before but it always looked pretty interesting have you had much time to play around with the historical cities yet?

also a LP would be pretty cool

no I havent had a try at the H.C. yet. I wanted to upload a 0.91 fast('ish) coz there was a bug in early industrial era that caused the AI to stand still developmentwise.

 

[Daft73]

@ Joseph
Im not home atm...
@ Daft73
Turn 768 - Foodrefining?
I havent tried marathon yet, its pretty hardcore mode even in vanilla, and in VIP i think normal=epic and epic=marathon, so marathon is a double marathon....
.

...Ya, I thought it was a little late, tech was slow. That game was plagued with disturbances by my lovely children,...so my game was well meh lol.
Gonna give it another go this morning. I have almost always played marathon..I just always like the idea of actually using units/game concepts per era, and not rushing(for me) past them. It does though make it tough at times.

 

[vincentz]

I really should have renamed Normal to Epic and Epic to Marathon and Marathon to perhaps Legendary (which I think ROM had).
I dont even want to think about how long time it takes to build a farm or mine before slavery. (40-50 turns?)

 

[JosEPh_II]

Is Slavery a Civic you Must have? I kind of hope not.

If it is I'll just play handicapped without it. I really can't stand it as I see it as way OP in any Mod that has it. Just my personal preference and not a jab at the Mod. I've always supported your ideas and will continue to do so. Jungle Camp, imho, was your 1st Major contribution and a game changing one at that. In fact in AND and C2C I've pushed very hard to have it in both Mods and it has been incorporated into both. (It's wee bit better in AND than in C2C but it's an accepted and well used part of both.)

JosEPh

 

[vincentz]

nope, slavery is not op in vip.
caste system is not that far behind, and is imho a lot better and slavery's "sacrifice" is extremely costly, so there is very little gained, plus it takes longer time for the city to grow back up, so its very unlikely it is of any use except in extreme emergencies.

tbh I only recall using slavery in late medieval because i was attacked by a stronger civ (and I lost the game anyway)

 

[Daft73]

@ Joseph; I as well stay clear of "slavery", never really find myself needing or using it. That said it still works..just usually not my cup o' tea.

Screenie shows how silly the Warlord can be..in this game the monguls are my neighbor and my warlord is having a field day over there

 

[vincentz]

very interesting screenshot. 8800 gold, 90% science, AI hopelessly behind (archers/rams/javelins).

Did you use Worldbuilder / Cheat codes?

I would love to get the hands on a savegame


and regards to Warlords : 2 axes and he would be dogfood

 

[Daft73]

very interesting screenshot. 8800 gold, 90% science, AI hopelessly behind (archers/rams/javelins).

Did you use Worldbuilder / Cheat codes?

I would love to get the hands on a savegame


and regards to Warlords : 2 axes and he would be dogfood

Nope..the goodie huts drop a good amount of gold per on Marathon(average 100-200). Plus a few missed wonders here and there..If I remember correctly, I missed the Pyramids by 2 turns or so..was 1800ish gold. I also had the monguls supplying me with a constant gpt with my Warlord wrecking their countryside. His workers units all would perish, My warlord would spend a turn 'in' their city, on the next turn his workers/guards would come back out of hiding in town. The warlord would have a worker and guard sandwich. Rinse and repeat. goodtimes.


In regard to the axemen, for sure, but he had a hard time developing such tech.

 

[vincentz]

thanks

It looks like two or three bad things have happened.
1) AI is not geared for 4000 turns marathons (a BtS marathon is 1500 turn). It will valuate how long time for things build and see if its worth it, and if things takes too long time it will try something else. Same goes for city growth I guess. I doubt I can repair that. Some AI's is almost at a standstill with size 1 cities, and even the "better" AIs have max size 10 cities. Your capital is size 17, so there should have been plenty of time for growth.

The biggest problem however looks like

2) Forest/Jungle Spread. Almost all the tiles are covered with either forest and jungle. Again, I dont think forest/jungle spread is balanced on gamespeeds, but rather a fixed number (which might work fine'ish for 1500 turns, but definately not for 4000. It doesnt help that I turned spread on even though there are routes (roads) build, which is turned off in BtS.
England is suffering most, coz its mainly on Plains/Forest, which doesnt bring a lot of food.

Spoiler :

Which brings

3) Mapscript. I organized mapscripts into VIP1 (have all features and terrain) VIP2 (have some features) and VIP3 (have neither new features (reefs, rocky, scenic, marsh etc) nor terrain (swamp). But this mapscript also leaves big areas of same (and some places) poor terrain, which together with the above, could result in AI incompetance.




My best advice is to quit the game instantly, use a VIP1 category mapscript on Epic (which is still 33% longer than BtS Marathon), and start over.

But thanks for the "report" . This is excactly the bugs I want to catch, coz I never play marathon, and im usually also quite singleminded when it comes to mapscripts.

 

[Drakarska]

lol, ok. Just so I'm clear. If we like to play at slower speeds, use Epic, not Marathon. As for map scripts, we only use VIP1? not any of the others, like VIP PW, etc?

 

[Daft73]

thanks ...

Anytime Vincentz, I will start a new one for sure