VQ04 - Revenge!

Maquis · Apr 11, 2006

So, since we seem to be faring better than the last couple of games... I've got to ask, who's ready for VQ05? I'll probably cross-post to the SG registration thread as well with details.

I've got a couple ideas up my sleeve...
One I dreamed up myself, which the warmongers among us might like (you there GreyFox?) I'll call it "The Conquistadors"

The second is a bit of a variant of "Oscillating War" that I'm playing in now. I'll explain later, but I'll just say it's going to be a builder's game. It will have the potential for war in it... but it will *not* be a conquest/domination game. I'm calling it "Exponential Advancement"

GreyFox · Apr 11, 2006

I am always ready for a VQ-series SG. Guess it is difficult to forgo a VQ SG ... somewhat like you will never forget your first love :lol:

But do let us know more on the detials ... do we need a VQ Planning Thread? :lol:

Back on VQ04:

I don't think we can instigate an all American war, I think they are really happy with each other. But we could (if we are not so behind in tech) get Hatty to war with the Yankees. I would advice continue building up till we have gunpowder.

Or simply take out the smaller America first. We still have open borders with the bigger America, so that is possible, unless the smaller America persuaded his big brother to cancel deals with us.

On Nara: bob, do you really hate Nara that much? :lol:

-

eektor · Apr 11, 2006

After playing the turns already, I look at what GreyFox said and wishes I saw the "continue to build up til gunpowder" before I started my turns. On Nara, I think Nara can be pretty good with all the ocean squares.

Anyways here's my turnset. I don't think I did well and I underestimated the amount of troops Roosevelt had

Turn 1: 1410 AD

Woot! We are the most powerful. Hmm ... number 2 is Roosevelt ... then Washington. I was wondering whether the easy Roosevelt would be so easy after all, but I decided to keep on.

I decided to build some longbowmen on our border cities so I will feel more secure when I begin the war.

Turn 2 - 6: 1420 - 1460 AD
I built longbowmen in the cities bordering roosevelt and tried to get some culture in the cities being attacked by egypt's culture.

Turn 7: 1470 AD
Printing Press discovered and we entered the Renaissance Era.
Decided to research gunpowder since its needed if we want to go toward rifleman or calvary (the next person can decide which.)

Traded PP to Mansa for Music and Philosophy
Traded PP to Hatty for Divine Right and 20 gold.
Caught up a little bit on techs. I could have traded PP to Roosevelt for Optics but that trade seemed bad and I thought we might want to get that off of Roosevelt when we negotiate for peace.

Declared War on Roosevelt
I started moving my stack toward Portland and Los Angeles.

Turn 9: 1490 AD
Once my stack moved near Portland, all hell broke loose and I was attacked by lots of units. Our mighty SoD was decimated. I sent what was left of it back to the hills to recuperate.

Turn 10: 1500 AD
Los Angeles captured and razed.

After turn comments:
Ok, I'm sorry for my turnset. I think it was a huge mistake on my part declaring war on Roosevelt. I was feeling good about it, because I saw Los Angeles, New Orleans and Atlanta with few units guarding them, so I thought it would be a cake walk. Unfortunately they had lots of units in Portland and they left my northern SoD in shambles.

The southern army did alright. It ran into unexpected resistance when a small stack from roosevelt came right beside my army. They pillaged our copper on the border too. I was able to kill them off and then take Los Angeles. Whoever is next can decide whether he wants to do a little detour and take New Orleans or send them up to Atlanta and then rejoin with the north army and attack Portland with full force.

Oh I'm building mostly knights now. I think it might be best to build some macemen or musketman (when we research gunpowder) since we lost a lot of our praets/maceman.

Again I'm really sorry, it was poor turnset on my part. Here's our power graph now:

Here's the autolog too: (Might want to look at turn 9)

Spoiler :

GreyFox · Apr 12, 2006

Uh-oh... I think we have entered a not-well-prepared war.

But, pretty good job capturing LA. Without looking at the save, I don't know if we are doing alright or not. Looking at autolog, I would say we are doing okay. The AI definitely knows how to use his collateral units. I hope we have enough cats of our own. Looking at the Power graph, I think we are doing even better. Sure, our power graph dips due to the counter-attack. But looks at Roosey's power graph. I think it drops even more.

We should be seeking for peace soon, as I don't think we are prepared enough to eliminate the bigger America. What is our objective in this war? Once objective is achieved, we would settle for peace. I would think the object is to clear a path to the smaller America. But I suspect that will be useless, cause once we declare on the smaller America, I predict it won't be long for the big America to step in to aid the little brother.

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eektor · Apr 12, 2006

With LA taken and razed we have a path to Washington. I suggest to take at least Atlanta which would help out a lot. Atlanta has 2 or 3 guys guarding it. New Orleans would be nice to take but I wouldn't worry about it. With Atlanta we should be ready to make peace and get ready for the next war.

I think when this war is over Roosevelt might not be the bigger or most powerful of the Americans. Also, watch out because Washington is the most advanced between them.

As for allies the only one that has declare war on Roosevelt in white (instead of red) is Mansa. So, it would be nice to get him in on it, maybe not this time but next time.

bobrath · Apr 12, 2006

I checked out the save last night. We got -1s with Hatty and George for attacking their friend... For some odd reason they like FDR better then us??? sigh.

I'll play tonight after work, so plenty of time for thoughts and discussion.

FDR does have a large chunk of units in the northern city along our eastern border, so a counter attack is a possibility. I'll be interested to see what you folks want to do with this war.

To me it feels like we're just setting up FDR to build up during peace time and come after us when we're too engaged with George!

@Grey - yeah, every time I see Nara I twinge!

Maquis · Apr 12, 2006

Once gunpowder comes in, should we turn down tech for a few turns to buy some upgrades? Can Preats be upgraded to muskets? I can't remember... Or would it ust be better to wait till we get Rifles to upgrade troops?

Otherwise, I think that we should try to focus on one enemy at a time. I agree with bobrath, I don't want to take on George, and give FDR time to build up and catch us unprepared. FDR still has many places where he can come after us, whereas GW still has only one spot to come at us (plus ocean of course)

If we take peace with FDR, make it only for buildup to go after him again. Lets not spread our stacks too thin.

bobrath · Apr 12, 2006

I think I saw that George and Hatty have Gunpowder (vague recollection from last night) - which means FDR will have it soon. My guess is I'll have to see what damage I can do to FDR (ie more pillage then capture), and then try to pull off a peace treaty.

Longer term we may have to take FDR down first and then George. I'm just worried that we'll be behind on military techs from here on out. I guess that means we need to overwhelm them with massive numbers - ie need to support as manay cities as we can so that we can crank out units!

eektor · Apr 12, 2006

I don't know I've never been too much of a fan of musketman. I think upgrading our praets to musketman is a good idea, but I still like maceman with the +50% to melee because we still fight against pikeman.

Before we make peace I suggest we pillage the towns as much as possible, so that Roosevelt will fall behind in techs. Roosevelt has always had the least technology (besides us). I still think we have a chance to have a lead in military, but we need to beeline to rifleman or calvary.

I'm for taking Roosevelt out first before going after Washington.

ChrTh · Apr 12, 2006

Granted, I haven't looked at the save yet ... but why are we wanting to make peace with FDR? I understand we lost a stack near Portland, but can we not reload and attack?

GreyFox · Apr 12, 2006

I suggested peace after achieving whatever objective we wish to achieve by starting this war ... but me too have not look at the save ... so I better shut up now

@bob: hmmm ... nara is a nice place, you know. used to house the imperial palace for some years ... see this webpage for more info.

eektor · Apr 12, 2006

The stack wasn't lost completely, its down to 6 units (from 12 or more) i believe and I moved it back to the jungle hill for extra defense. I would keep it there to take off any units that Roosevelt tries to send to our area. We just need to add reinforcement to the stack to go after Portland.

I wouldn't worry too much of a big SoD from them because I destroyed one down south and they lost a lot trying to take our SoD down.

I suggest looking at the save. We aren't in a bad position, just we won't be able to take Portland until we get more reinforcements. We still can take Atlanta and New Orleans very easily. Oh and becareful because they were sending horse archers from Atlanta to our area to pillage, so it would be good to keep a knight or two around there to prevent that.

bobrath · Apr 13, 2006

Once again... we moved forward.

Short Summary:
Captured Atlanta
Portland under siege, but FDR has a freakin huge stack there!!
Our navy got put back into port...
We're 8 turns out from Rifling

FDR has nothing we want for peace, I suggest next player (or maybe two) just put him out of our misery.

Now the turns:
1500 (turn 0)
I went into deficit research for my first turn to get Gunpowder.

1505 (turn 1)
I switched to the big three civics of war (Vasslage, Theocracy, Police State) cause all I would be doing is producing units (except along Hatty's border of course). Waited one turn so that a few buildings could finish off with the OR bonus.
With Gunpowder coming in, I moved quickly to Replaceable Parts. Also traded Gunpowder to the one civ lacking it (Mansa) in exchange for world map, some gold, and Optics
I moved our northern stack back into our borders to speed up healing.

1510 (turn 2)
War Machine is cranking up!! Hatty completed Angkor What?

1515 (turn 3)
I discover a sleeping Great Engineer in Rome! He happily advances our research of Replaceable parts. It will come in much quicker now.

1520 (turn 4)
I've decided to just isolate New Orleans with a pair of maces. No sense diverting a huge stack for that lonely village. Besides, I may get lucky and FDR will pull a Longbow out.

Even better, another GE is born in Rome... Won't waste him on RP - I notice that Versailles is still available... London is the perfect site! So the GE trucks over there to help finish what I start this turn.

1525 (turn 5)
Nara finishes a Galley and our first naval unit sails out to guard the waters over our fishes.
FDR sneaks a knight over to my workers rehooking the copper. Knight is quickly destroyed and our workers recaptured.

1530 (turn 6)
Northern stack ventures back closer to Portland and immeadiatly gets a counter attack thrown at it. Love to see units coming out of a city! 2 loses for 4 wins. Oh and we learn Replacable Parts.
No one is willing to trade us for it (they all have Nationalism and Education). On to Rifling!

1535 (turn 7)
I begin the attack on Atlanta and its a success!! Then my computer crashed. Thanks RNG for auto saves - it let me enjoy capturing Atlanta one more time. I chose to keep Atlanta as a spring board for attacks on Washington in the future. Gives us a nice front there.

1540 (turn 8)
My plan to use open borders with George comes to fruition (we can move faster through GWs lands then through FDRs and less chance of getting attacked). My triple knight group pillages the far eastern iron of FDR and is in route to hit his copper. The cities in his rear are defended by about three units (no way our knights could do it). Here's the layout for that (pic taken at end of turns):

1545 and 1550 (turns 9 & 10)
I just keep the pressure on Portland and absorb the counter attacks. As long as FDR is happy to keep throwing units out from the city, I'll be happy to take the free promotions. Our southern stack is nearly in range, the defenses are gone.

Its going to be a beast of a battle, but once its over FDR will roll up. I checked and he would give us 3 gpt, 190 gold, and his world map for peace... that will buy us what, one or two upgrades??? I don't think so.

Oh, and sure enough FDR tried to sneak a longbow out of New Orleans. PFFT

I suspect the next player can revolt back to normal civics and get back to cleaning up our GNP. That's the only spot we're weak (Hatty is of course rocking the culture). Oh power wise:

TurnLog:

Spoiler :

and as always here's the world as I leave it:

Finally the save file:

GreyFox · Apr 13, 2006

Good turns, bob!

bobrath said:
Then my computer crashed. Thanks RNG for auto saves - it let me enjoy capturing Atlanta one more time.

Ok, looking at the cultural map, I think we can raze Seattle (too much pressure from Washy for it to be useful). Denver is also an auto-raze site. I would keep Oakland New York and Miami.

--

Got it, won't get to it until tomorrow (say in 14 hrs time). Thanks Jesus, tomorrow is public holiday (pun intended).

--

bobrath · Apr 13, 2006

I agree that Denver is auto raze.
Seattle only serves as a buffer to GWs culture. Not sure if he'll try to settle there when we raze it.
I don't see an Oakland anywhere tho... maybe you meant Portland?
If you want to keep Miami, then keeping Boston is probably going to be essential - just to maintain a cultural link to it and to keep enough cultural pressure on the former Seattle site.

Even tho we're organized, I suspect we will need to get more and more selective in keeping city sites. Since this is a conquest game, capturing cities isn't as essential. Of course if a city has a wonder or some great resources (we need to find coal!!!) then we'd be silly not to keep it. Additionally if we leave holes then Hatty or Mansa will settle there and give us free gold when we wipe out the new villages in the first turns of war.

BTW re: Versailles, I suppose I could have waited and found a better spot in the Americas for it - but I just can't beleive it would be available 30 odd turns from now. At London, it will help with the cultural war going on AND makes Hatty's cities lower maintenance when we make that move.

Maquis · Apr 13, 2006

I think you made a good call on Versilles. We already have the FP in Kyoto, which helps cities up by FDR (and maybe Washington, a bit)

Also, a couple of notes: I put up a VQ discussion thread yesterday. All VQ vets can chime in on ideas, and I'm going to be starting up VQ05 soon.

Also, related to this game, NEW PATCH!! Now, I'd be willing to upgrade, but I understand if people want to wait. (I assume some of us are playing the GOTM?)

GreyFox · Apr 13, 2006

[Totally Off Topic]

Huh? New path is out ???? :wow:

... Geez ... I haven't even start Adv5 and its going to be closed ... :eek:

--

ChrTh · Apr 13, 2006

I'm not upgrading until after the CTIV games I'm currently running are finished. CTIV-6 is almost done, CTIV-7 may be done within a rotation, but CTIV-5 might still be awhile.

eektor · Apr 13, 2006

about Patch

I think we should keep this game pre patch. The new game could go with the new patch, but I don't want to patch until I finish gotm 5. I can try to finish it up quickly this weekend if need be. Then again I think many of us are not wanting to patch yet.

about Denver

I think we should keep it and name it Nara 2 :lol:

Just kidding, raze it. I would like to keep Portland New York, Boston, and Miami and raze Denver and Seattle.

@ bobrath

I'm glad you fared better than me against the stack in Portland. At least I killed most of the catapults for you

GreyFox · Apr 14, 2006

No more crappy story-telling from me ... straight to the point ...

Pre-turn

Lots of MM'ing ... particularly two grumble from the grumpyfox:
- Why is Antium working on a forest instead of copper mine? And why merchant as specialist? why Hindu Temple here? --> change to work on copper, change merchant to engineer, let Hindu continues to be built (1 turn anyway)
- MM'ed osaka to work on the dyes instead of the mills

The siege of Portland

In honor of Lord Eektor ... the 23rd battalion fought fierce and hard for the city of Portland:

Turn 222 (1560 AD)
Catapult loses to: American Knight (6.10/10)
Catapult loses to: American Longbowman (1.80/6)
Two sacrifical cats ... God bless them ...
Musketman promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult loses to: American Knight (4.70/10)
Third sacrificial cats ... damned, I usually have a one-third chance of retreating cats ...
Maceman promoted: Medic I
Musketman defeats (9.00/9): American Knight
Musketman promoted: Combat I
Musketman defeats (9.00/9): American Knight
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): American Knight
Maceman defeats (5.12/8): American Horse Archer
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): American Pikeman
Praetorian defeats (6.08/8): American Pikeman
Knight defeats (8.70/10): American Longbowman
Knight defeats (4.40/10): American Catapult
Maceman defeats (6.00/8): American Catapult

Hinduism has spread: Portland
Buddhism has spread: Portland
Captured Portland (Roosevelt)

And Lord Eektor is avenged.

The seige of Boston

A separate forces, with the guidelines of General Bobrath, uses the route of Washy's land arrives to hit on Boston ...

Turn 226 (1580 AD)

Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult loses to: American Longbowman (5.22/6)

As usual, the ritual demands an initial sacrificial cat ...

Knight promoted: Combat I
Musketman promoted: Combat II
Knight promoted: Combat II
Knight promoted: Flanking I
Knight promoted: Flanking II
Knight loses to: American Longbowman (4.08/6) <- retreats
Musketman defeats (3.33/9): American Longbowman
Musketman promoted: Combat II
Musketman loses to: American Longbowman (4.08/6)
Musketman promoted: Combat I
Musketman promoted: Cover
Musketman defeats (5.40/9): American Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (5.28/8): American Pikeman

Confucianism has spread: Boston (American Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Boston
Confucianism has spread: Boston
Captured Boston (Roosevelt)

Q.E.D.

The Uncompleted Battle for New York and Seattle

An initial stack reached the city of New York, and I made the mistake of going too close to the city ...

Turn 226 (1580 AD)
Knight defeats (8.70/10): American Catapult
Knight defeats (4.30/10): American Knight
Knight defeats (2.60/10): American Longbowman
Maceman loses to: American Crossbowman (1.68/6)
Maceman loses to: American Longbowman (0.48/6)
Pikeman loses to: American Longbowman (3.60/6)
Maceman loses to: American Longbowman (4.56/6)

:aargh:

Damned! the remaining survivors moved to the hill.

Next turn, Roosey attacks again ....

Turn 227 (1585 AD)
Catapult loses to: American Pikeman (3.96/6)

Damned ...

Next turn, my lone reinforcement knight arrives ...

But Roosey attacks yet again the next turn ...

Turn 229 (1595 AD)
Knight loses to: American Knight (8.20/10)
Knight loses to: American Musketman (1.44/9)

Geez, I expect knights on hill to fare better ...

But fear not, at the end, the main reinforment arrives.

I tried to avenge our troops to kill off the wounded Knight ...

Knight loses to: American Knight (4.20/10)

Damned, what horsehockey luck!

Here is the situation at New York ....

There is also another smaller stack at the doorstep of Seattle and bombarding the defence from Washy's land. That city should be easily razed/captured. Roosy did send a pikeman to kill one of our knights, but he was avenged by the other knights.

Here is the cultural view:

--

Other Notes

- I started Globe Theatre in Rome.

- Most of the cities are now building buildings, so may want to switch to OR. But that incurs a turn of anrachy, so up to next player. I think we have barely sufficient troops to finish off Roosey, but you may want to built a couple more Knights.

- Oh, and we have a shiny new rifleman, thanks to:

Heading towards chemistry for Grenies.

Autolog:

Spoiler :

The Save (ChrTh is UP):

VQ04 - Revenge!

King

Make it so ...

Prince

Make it so ...

Prince

Emperor

King

Emperor

Prince

Happy Yule!

Make it so ...

Prince

Emperor

Make it so ...

Emperor

King

Make it so ...

Happy Yule!

Prince

Make it so ...

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