GreyFox
Make it so ...
Added ... 
VQ04 - Revenge!
- Thread starter Maquis
- Start date
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
GreyFox said:Added ...
Glad to know I'm contributing so soon!@eektor: Great turns, sorry I didn't fall in line with everyone else
Yeah, if Toku is going to be that easy, might as well take him down. Do we want to expand as far north as Kyoto at this juncture, or do you think we should raze north of Edo/Tokyo?
I think there's a big city between Tokyo and Edo just under Kyoto. Might want that for dyes and its still kind of close. I think Kyoto would be good to keep since most capitals make better than average cities. Although razing would help our economy, we don't want to leave too much space so that Hatty and Mansa will get stronger by expanding into that open territory. Oh and I believe the Americans have feudalism so after Toka our praet advantage is gone.
@ChrTh - It wasn't just you, I was being told to attack Hatty, Toku, and Washington.
@GreyFox - On your analysis the East, they are farther than toka so it should be very far not relatively. (when i think of relatively far, i think of its not too far.)
@ChrTh - It wasn't just you, I was being told to attack Hatty, Toku, and Washington.
@GreyFox - On your analysis the East, they are farther than toka so it should be very far not relatively. (when i think of relatively far, i think of its not too far.)
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Great job, eektor. 
Gave me a shock when I click on your autolog .... I was very sure I eliminated Vicky, and was like :"huh? Did some neocomancers riased her from the dead and resurrect her?" ...
I wasn't sure if you have split our forces into two ... I would have.
I would be inclined to keep Kyoto, since cpaital sites are usually great. But that depends on the available resources there. Plus keeping Kyoto would let us effectively divide the land into two, completely blocking east from west. Then we can take out the americans at our leisure, and can raze cities there without fear of Hatty and Mansa settling in place.
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Gave me a shock when I click on your autolog .... I was very sure I eliminated Vicky, and was like :"huh? Did some neocomancers riased her from the dead and resurrect her?" ...
I wasn't sure if you have split our forces into two ... I would have.
I would be inclined to keep Kyoto, since cpaital sites are usually great. But that depends on the available resources there. Plus keeping Kyoto would let us effectively divide the land into two, completely blocking east from west. Then we can take out the americans at our leisure, and can raze cities there without fear of Hatty and Mansa settling in place.
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oldbustedjorn
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2006
- Messages
- 353
Ok, now I feel really stupid - I hadn't seen a civ email in over a week. I don't visit the forums for every update I get, but alway visit enough to keep the updates coming. Somehow, I got tied up enough to miss all of them at least once and forgot about it. I will have to spend a bit reading through the whole thread, but I'm fine with being an alternate for the remainder. RL has let up a bit.
Ok, hmm let's see some thoughts about the game.
I suggest you make peace with the Japanese and send our stack to Mansa and declare war and take their cities.
But seriously, my suggestion is to keep the Japanese cities up to Kyoto and then probably raze the rest, unless some of them look really good. I divided our armies into two stacks one is right next to Tokyo and the other is in Edo. Might want to build some more archers because as of now I only got one archer for Edo and one archer for Tokyo.
I suggest you make peace with the Japanese and send our stack to Mansa and declare war and take their cities.
But seriously, my suggestion is to keep the Japanese cities up to Kyoto and then probably raze the rest, unless some of them look really good. I divided our armies into two stacks one is right next to Tokyo and the other is in Edo. Might want to build some more archers because as of now I only got one archer for Edo and one archer for Tokyo.
GreyFox
Make it so ...
I don't think there is the resteektor said:
Looking at the save, in Kyoto's north, you can see a hint of coastline ... so my estimate is that there maybe only 3 jap cities left: Tokyo, an unknown city (Osaka be my guess) working on the dyes east of Tokyo, and Kyoto.
You don't need help, bob. eektor's armies are split into two, you should be able to take tokyo in your initial turns, and Osaka (?) latter in your turnset. Appreciate if you leave me Kyoto
, but take it if you really can But seriously, beef up our defense in London, York and Nothingham. Some of them has only a pathetic warrior or archer guarding the city.
Careful of the jap sword near our border too ...
Good Hunting!
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ChrTh
Happy Yule!
When I looked at the prior save, I thought I noticed that Toku had 6 cities (5 listed plus the capital)...but I could be mis-remembering.
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
Well, I captured 3 japanese cities 
Too bad tokugawa decided to keep founding new ones! He even tried walking a settler (with two spearmen escorts) across our territory. Of course that turned into a worker donation and free exp for our praets.
At the start of my turns FDR did not have longbows... as of the end of my turns, I see some now. Ah well, at least Japan is still flinging sticks at us with small bows!
Hatty completed Chichen Itza in 1030 AD, so its probably even better we didn't go after her!
Tokyo fell in my first turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
Osaka fell in my sixth turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
Satsuma fell in my seventh turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
We've got three SoDs heading towards the remainder of Tokugawa's cities. I'd suggest using the more western pair for the majority while the southern one gets set up for going after FDR.
We are behind in techs to most of the civs and our GNP is just horrible. Only reason I had good research was pillaging was good income.
We did pop a Great Prophet at the start of my turns and he would have taught us Monotheism. I held off. When Civil Service completed (1040), I researched Monotheism next in one turn (1050), I then had a
and revolted to both Bureacracy and Organized Religion... Forgetting the GP would give me Theology and thus allowing Theocracy instead!!! Ah well. We get Theology right after I click the revolt button... sigh
Traded Theology to Washington for HorseBackRiding and Literature and 20 gold. He wanted Civil Service, but I don't want that one getting out yet. We completed Drama research in 1080 and have two turns of research into Machinery. (I'm thinking of heading towards Engineering for the improved road movement). I considered Divine Right, but it was too many beakers and I believe we need the military advantage more then we need to found Islam.
Hatty has already pushed the cultural border next to Nottingham (and thus the desire to research drama for the much needed theaters). We need to spread Buddhism to York, London, and Edo and only then should we convert from No Religion to Buddhism (imo). Doing so early would remove needed culture from those two english cities that are under pressure. Flip side is that we will really need the building boost as I doubt we're going to go into another war right away.
I did complete two wonders. Hanging Gardens in Rome (bit of whipping and chopping for this one) and Colossus in Cumae (just whipping here).
I made sure to get Washington more happy towards us. FDR was friends with Tokugawa and that combined with our border pressure means he's the least happy with us. Mansa and Hatty thing we're the bee's knees. I have not traded with either of them (and neither would even consider warring on Japan anyway). Don't want to help the tech leaders - we are the score leaders easily.
We have the best production, the best crop yield, and easily the best power. Hatty leads in Culture and Washington leads in GNP.
Here's the culture (notice FDR did a small fishing village south of LA named New Orleans!):
There may be one more Japanese city east of Kyoto, but I don't know yet.
Rome and Antium are building Buddhist Missionaries and I'd guess Rome can build one more - ideally those can all get our remaining three cities lined up with Buddhism. Next player can go straight to Buddhism right away if they want. It will make FDR more angry and probably take Washington to neutral, but it will cement Hatty and Mansa as happy with us.
I did take some screen shots of the three Japanese cities falling - but how exciting is total domination?
York will pop borders in 3 turns I think, most of the rest of our cities are not due anytime soon. Rome was unhealthy at the start of my turn, but whipping + aqueduct + hanging gardens + trading for health resources with Washington fixed that for good.
Tokyo is going to be unhappy for a while - at least until we eliminate Japan. Too much desire to return to the fatherland.
Many of our Praets are city raider 3 promoted, but I did try to slip a few medics in there. All of our cities have at least one archer, with the older (ie pure roman) cities having multiple archers. I have not yet research vasalage as I believe we can pick that up from any of the other civs at whim.
That's about it... but I'll probably have more to say tomorrow when I think about this turn and you folks as more questions (de rigour).
Woo Hoo turn log
The Save
Too bad tokugawa decided to keep founding new ones! He even tried walking a settler (with two spearmen escorts) across our territory. Of course that turned into a worker donation and free exp for our praets.
At the start of my turns FDR did not have longbows... as of the end of my turns, I see some now. Ah well, at least Japan is still flinging sticks at us with small bows!
Hatty completed Chichen Itza in 1030 AD, so its probably even better we didn't go after her!
Tokyo fell in my first turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
Osaka fell in my sixth turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
Satsuma fell in my seventh turn and we took no loses. I kept it.
We've got three SoDs heading towards the remainder of Tokugawa's cities. I'd suggest using the more western pair for the majority while the southern one gets set up for going after FDR.
We are behind in techs to most of the civs and our GNP is just horrible. Only reason I had good research was pillaging was good income.
We did pop a Great Prophet at the start of my turns and he would have taught us Monotheism. I held off. When Civil Service completed (1040), I researched Monotheism next in one turn (1050), I then had a
and revolted to both Bureacracy and Organized Religion... Forgetting the GP would give me Theology and thus allowing Theocracy instead!!! Ah well. We get Theology right after I click the revolt button... sighTraded Theology to Washington for HorseBackRiding and Literature and 20 gold. He wanted Civil Service, but I don't want that one getting out yet. We completed Drama research in 1080 and have two turns of research into Machinery. (I'm thinking of heading towards Engineering for the improved road movement). I considered Divine Right, but it was too many beakers and I believe we need the military advantage more then we need to found Islam.
Hatty has already pushed the cultural border next to Nottingham (and thus the desire to research drama for the much needed theaters). We need to spread Buddhism to York, London, and Edo and only then should we convert from No Religion to Buddhism (imo). Doing so early would remove needed culture from those two english cities that are under pressure. Flip side is that we will really need the building boost as I doubt we're going to go into another war right away.
I did complete two wonders. Hanging Gardens in Rome (bit of whipping and chopping for this one) and Colossus in Cumae (just whipping here).
I made sure to get Washington more happy towards us. FDR was friends with Tokugawa and that combined with our border pressure means he's the least happy with us. Mansa and Hatty thing we're the bee's knees. I have not traded with either of them (and neither would even consider warring on Japan anyway). Don't want to help the tech leaders - we are the score leaders easily.
We have the best production, the best crop yield, and easily the best power. Hatty leads in Culture and Washington leads in GNP.
Here's the culture (notice FDR did a small fishing village south of LA named New Orleans!):
There may be one more Japanese city east of Kyoto, but I don't know yet.
Rome and Antium are building Buddhist Missionaries and I'd guess Rome can build one more - ideally those can all get our remaining three cities lined up with Buddhism. Next player can go straight to Buddhism right away if they want. It will make FDR more angry and probably take Washington to neutral, but it will cement Hatty and Mansa as happy with us.
I did take some screen shots of the three Japanese cities falling - but how exciting is total domination?
York will pop borders in 3 turns I think, most of the rest of our cities are not due anytime soon. Rome was unhealthy at the start of my turn, but whipping + aqueduct + hanging gardens + trading for health resources with Washington fixed that for good.
Tokyo is going to be unhappy for a while - at least until we eliminate Japan. Too much desire to return to the fatherland.
Many of our Praets are city raider 3 promoted, but I did try to slip a few medics in there. All of our cities have at least one archer, with the older (ie pure roman) cities having multiple archers. I have not yet research vasalage as I believe we can pick that up from any of the other civs at whim.
That's about it... but I'll probably have more to say tomorrow when I think about this turn and you folks as more questions (de rigour).
Woo Hoo turn log
Spoiler :
The Save
GreyFox
Make it so ...
Fantastically wonderful set of turns, bob!
3 cities captured, 2 wonders, at only 3 unit losses? That is unbelieveable.
, it will only contrast how bad I am ... 
... and I just realized after me is ChrTh ... 
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3 cities captured, 2 wonders, at only 3 unit losses? That is unbelieveable.
, it will only contrast how bad I am ... ... and I just realized after me is ChrTh ... -
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Don't worry, GreyFox, I am more than capable of while fighting.
Quick question: Why revolt to OR if we don't have a state religion?
while fighting.Quick question: Why revolt to OR if we don't have a state religion?
GreyFox
Make it so ...
And GreyFox Humbly Ascends ...
Looking at the world, we have a peaceful south and a chaotic north ... THIS WILL NOT DO... the Japanese menance must end!!!
Seems like I always get to eliminate our enemies
But first, re-assigned a pop in London to work on the lake (that's the reason why we built the Colossus, eh?)
Next thing is revolt to buddhism ... why wait for 2 cities to get converted at the expense of all others when we are already in Organized Religion???
And The War Rages On
First, is the taking of Nara ....
Turn 173 (1130 AD)
Rome begins: Catapult
Antium begins: Praetorian
Nottingham begins: Theatre
Praetorian defeats (2.56/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.80/8): Japanese Archer
Captured Nara (Tokugawa)
Then, Kyoto .... (sorry, no pic)
Turn 175 (1150 AD)
Rome begins: Archer
Catapult loses to: Japanese Longbowman (2.64/6)
Catapult loses to: Japanese Longbowman (5.40/6)
Praetorian defeats (6.80/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.88/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (2.00/8): Japanese Archer
Praetorian promoted: Combat II
Praetorian defeats (6.48/8): Japanese Axeman
Praetorian promoted: City Raider I
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Archer
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Longbowman
Axeman loses to: Japanese Catapult (1.90/5)
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Catapult
Confucianism has spread: Kyoto (Japanese Empire)
Confucianism has spread: Kyoto
Captured Kyoto (Tokugawa)
, the Japanese is still around????
Damned, they have one more city!!!
But not for long ...
Turn 180 (1200 AD)
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Warrior
Praetorian defeats (2.00/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.72/8): Japanese Axeman
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima (Japanese Empire)
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima
Captured Kagoshima (Tokugawa)
Razed Kagoshima
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima
Kagoshima lost
Decided to raze the last city. (1) It's pretty useless, (2) it overlappes a lot with Kyoto, and (3) our money is draining away ... at a record > -60gpt@80%!!!!
Meanwhile ...
The Americans (the pink one, not the blue one) land is explored to reveal their sources of iron ... see if we can disconnect them and stop their longbows manufacturing ....
Answer is no.
They have 3, and pretty spread out.
Oh, and by the way:
EDIT: Opps, wrong image ...
This is the correct one ...
Headed us towards Engineering ...
After Turn Notes
Our stack .. (don't worry, there is a few more spread in the captured cities ...
The cultural view:
Our Demographs:
Random Thoughts
- Our economy sucks ... but it should get better once the courthouses are done. Forbidden Palace is unlocked, suggested spot is Kyoto, but up to next player.
- Antium is our prod powerhouse, starting it with heroic epic ...
- Suggest building National Epic in Capital, it is a farming heaven, so maybe a GPFarm?
- I have a mini-SoD assembling in Antium.
- One or two archers are on thier way north to relief the prates of garrison duty.
- Roosy is huge ... I am not too sure if we really want to take him on right now ... Washy seems to be pretty squeezed by Roosy, so may consider starting a Civil War among the Americans ...
- Autolog:
The Save (ChrTh is UP):
Looking at the world, we have a peaceful south and a chaotic north ... THIS WILL NOT DO... the Japanese menance must end!!!
Seems like I always get to eliminate our enemies
But first, re-assigned a pop in London to work on the lake (that's the reason why we built the Colossus, eh?)
Next thing is revolt to buddhism ... why wait for 2 cities to get converted at the expense of all others when we are already in Organized Religion???
And The War Rages On
First, is the taking of Nara ....
Turn 173 (1130 AD)
Rome begins: Catapult
Antium begins: Praetorian
Nottingham begins: Theatre
Praetorian defeats (2.56/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.80/8): Japanese Archer
Captured Nara (Tokugawa)
Then, Kyoto .... (sorry, no pic)
Turn 175 (1150 AD)
Rome begins: Archer
Catapult loses to: Japanese Longbowman (2.64/6)
Catapult loses to: Japanese Longbowman (5.40/6)
Praetorian defeats (6.80/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.88/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (2.00/8): Japanese Archer
Praetorian promoted: Combat II
Praetorian defeats (6.48/8): Japanese Axeman
Praetorian promoted: City Raider I
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Archer
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Longbowman
Axeman loses to: Japanese Catapult (1.90/5)
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Catapult
Confucianism has spread: Kyoto (Japanese Empire)
Confucianism has spread: Kyoto
Captured Kyoto (Tokugawa)
, the Japanese is still around????Damned, they have one more city!!!
But not for long ...
Turn 180 (1200 AD)
Praetorian defeats (8.00/8): Japanese Warrior
Praetorian defeats (2.00/8): Japanese Longbowman
Praetorian defeats (6.72/8): Japanese Axeman
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima (Japanese Empire)
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima
Captured Kagoshima (Tokugawa)
Razed Kagoshima
Confucianism has spread: Kagoshima
Kagoshima lost
Decided to raze the last city. (1) It's pretty useless, (2) it overlappes a lot with Kyoto, and (3) our money is draining away ... at a record > -60gpt@80%!!!!
Meanwhile ...
The Americans (the pink one, not the blue one) land is explored to reveal their sources of iron ... see if we can disconnect them and stop their longbows manufacturing ....
Answer is no.
They have 3, and pretty spread out.
Oh, and by the way:
EDIT: Opps, wrong image ...
This is the correct one ...
Headed us towards Engineering ...
After Turn Notes
Our stack .. (don't worry, there is a few more spread in the captured cities ...
The cultural view:
Our Demographs:
Random Thoughts
- Our economy sucks ... but it should get better once the courthouses are done. Forbidden Palace is unlocked, suggested spot is Kyoto, but up to next player.
- Antium is our prod powerhouse, starting it with heroic epic ...
- Suggest building National Epic in Capital, it is a farming heaven, so maybe a GPFarm?
- I have a mini-SoD assembling in Antium.
- One or two archers are on thier way north to relief the prates of garrison duty.
- Roosy is huge ... I am not too sure if we really want to take him on right now ... Washy seems to be pretty squeezed by Roosy, so may consider starting a Civil War among the Americans ...
- Autolog:
Spoiler :
The Save (ChrTh is UP):
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Got it, will be playing tomorrow night (EDT).
Hrm, not sure why it was important for us to learn that Fox02 researched Monotheism in 200 AD ...
Hrm, not sure why it was important for us to learn that Fox02 researched Monotheism in 200 AD ...
GreyFox
Make it so ...
What a ... cut-n-paste the wrong image tag from photobucket ... correcting ...
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
ChrTh said:
Mainly because it lets you build missionaries even if you don't have monasteries. Quicker spread of religion. (but also a bit of a
choice as I'm used to having religion by this point in the game!).@Greyfox - Why did you keep Nara? It has massive overlap with Kyoto and really only gives us fish. Not really understanding the choice on that.
Great turns otherwise, I was fairly certain Japan had a third city east and that's why I didn't move the third stack down to Antium. I saw that Tokugawa had Longbows at the end so I'm guessing someone gave him the tech...
Our next war will require the next level of military (knights, macemen, etc) OR do we wait until we get to gunpowder (and as such beeline for it and cannons)? I much prefer fighting wars where I have a tech advantage.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Bobrath brings up a good question: do I focus fully on building during my turns? If so, do I disperse the stacks to our border cities (as defenders and eventual military police when obsolete), or do I keep them intact?
In terms of building, I'm guessing we'll want to put some priority on finance (courthouses, markets) rather than science (monasteries, libraries)? I definitely think Kyoto should build Forbidden Palace.
In terms of building, I'm guessing we'll want to put some priority on finance (courthouses, markets) rather than science (monasteries, libraries)? I definitely think Kyoto should build Forbidden Palace.
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
I wouldn't disperse the stacks. Get em lined up by FDR's border - unless something major changed, he's going to be the most likely to come after us AND/OR the most likely for us to go after.
My opinion is that while we might be able to scrape by with city raider 3 praets against Longbows.... well we'd be better off building up enough of a treasury to upgrade those bad boys to more "modern" units and then press on. If FDR wasn't so large then I'd say press our advantage now (he's only had Longbows avail for about 15 turns) but given his size that's a war of attrition I don't like especially because there's a good chance folks like FDR enough for it to hurt our relations.
Speaking of, how did the switch to buddhism affect our relationship points with the other civs?
So, I'm thinking that anything we can do to get our economy ticking. We have to cover our expansion (thank god for organized leader type). While upping research directly with buildings is nice, upping income will also increase our research ability (since we can sustain a higher rate).
I do want to keep in mind that we have to balance building a treasury to pay for unit upgrades with getting back into the tech race. I'm not sure if anyone has researched Civil Service, but once one person does then try to trade it with the other civs to get us caught back up. Hatty was the tech leader so she'll probably be the last person I'd trade with.
Having Engineering will be great for unit movement - next tech?? maybe we go the Banking route first as it will improve our economy (but will mercantillism help us?). Or we go guilds since that leads to Gunpowder (and gets us Knights along the way).
Uggh... in my mind I go back and forth between pushing hard on the military techs to get our army all fearsome AND going the economic/research route to let us get back up the tech tree to some of the yummy civics.
My opinion is that while we might be able to scrape by with city raider 3 praets against Longbows.... well we'd be better off building up enough of a treasury to upgrade those bad boys to more "modern" units and then press on. If FDR wasn't so large then I'd say press our advantage now (he's only had Longbows avail for about 15 turns) but given his size that's a war of attrition I don't like especially because there's a good chance folks like FDR enough for it to hurt our relations.
Speaking of, how did the switch to buddhism affect our relationship points with the other civs?
So, I'm thinking that anything we can do to get our economy ticking. We have to cover our expansion (thank god for organized leader type). While upping research directly with buildings is nice, upping income will also increase our research ability (since we can sustain a higher rate).
I do want to keep in mind that we have to balance building a treasury to pay for unit upgrades with getting back into the tech race. I'm not sure if anyone has researched Civil Service, but once one person does then try to trade it with the other civs to get us caught back up. Hatty was the tech leader so she'll probably be the last person I'd trade with.
Having Engineering will be great for unit movement - next tech?? maybe we go the Banking route first as it will improve our economy (but will mercantillism help us?). Or we go guilds since that leads to Gunpowder (and gets us Knights along the way).
Uggh... in my mind I go back and forth between pushing hard on the military techs to get our army all fearsome AND going the economic/research route to let us get back up the tech tree to some of the yummy civics.
