VQ04 - Revenge!

On Nara: It was mainly a misclick, didn't bother to reload since there is a resource. Plus I like Nara ... :D

On Relations: After switching, our relations with Hatty and Mansa rose to around +10, still pleased, with no negatives. Relationship with Americans remain cautious.

On Civil Service: I thought someone did researched it ... the romans IIRC in eektor's turn, but I may be remembering it wrong ...

On Banking: Doesn't Banking requires Guilds? So, after engineering, i think guilds is a good choice.

If FDR wasn't so big, I would say we hit on them now. Now, I think rebuilding might be the more correct path. With the Roman Empire so huge, we would sooner or later catch up in terms of tech (40% of 300 raw commerce is stil greater than 80% of 140 commerce). Also, with Machinery, we no longer can build praets (Maceman cost more than Praets).

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On Civil Service. I started it and quote from bobrath's turnset

When Civil Service completed (1040), I researched Monotheism next in one turn (1050), ...

Good turns and I agree with taking sometime to build up our empire before we strike the americans. We could always start a world war with Mansa and Hatty vs the Americans and join up later.

on Macemen - well at least macemen has the +50% against melee.
 
I meant to refer to another Civ having Civil Service (not us as I remember finishing it!). If we still have the monopoly on it, then hold off trading until another civ gets it *then* trade it around to get missing techs.
 
Turn 0 -- 1200 AD

First things first: Civil Service. We won't be trading it because everyone else has it. Mansa is the only one with Engineering, though, so when that comes in I'll shop it for Feudalism and Compass.

Situation Assessment
Cities:
We have 13 cities, with Kyoto still in revolt for 2 more turns. Most are building buildings. All cities (except for Kyoto of course) are happy and healthy. MM'd Antium a bit (was working a lame tile for some reason) so it'd stop starving. I agree with GreyFox's idea for National Epic in Rome and switch the archer there to National Epic (will only take 5 turns).

Finances:
We're at -62 gpt with science at 80%. Will keep it there to get Engineering before Mansa trades it around (hopefully). Will start Forbidden Palace in Kyoto once it's out of revolt, that should help too.

Civics:
Hrm, we're in Police State. Since we're not at War, I'm going to suggest revolting to Representation because it's cheaper and gives us a happiness boost (not needed yet). When we get Mercantilism (more on that in a second), it'll give us extra research power. I'm not revolting until after Engineering is in, though. Everything else is good.

Nottingham is taking a cultural beating from Hattie. I whip the Forge so we can build something Culturelike there.

Diplomacy:
In a not-so-big-a-surprise, our Buddhist Cohorts are Pleased with us and the Hindu Americans are Cautious. FDR is the only one with any penalties (although I suspect declaring on him will give us some with GW in the future) because of close borders and declaring on a friend (Vicky?). Neither GW or FDR have Buddhism so they can't convert. No one is annoyed with anyone. No one has enough gold or an extra resource to trade us. Techwise FDR is up only Feudalism, GW is up Feudalism+Compass, Hattie is up Music and Philosophy as well as those two, and Mansa has added Engineering. Unfortunately, FDR is the only one without Literature and Drama.

Tech:
Engineering due in 2. I would like to get to Banking for the extra cash possibility. We need Feudalism and Guilds to get there. I hope to trade Engineering for Feudalism and start Guilds. I'm thinking Guilds > Banking > Gunpowder > Chemistry.

Religion:
We're Buddhist. Only 4 cities are sans Buddhism. My goal is to get them Buddhist, hopefully some will spread naturally.

Demographics:
Our GNP is weak--dead last. Hopefully moving towards more advanced economic techs will help. Our approval rate is low, but who cares? Everywhere else, we're #1!

Military:
We're looking good here. I'm going to try to make 2 stacks, one in Edo and one in Antium.

Goals:
Buddhism everywhere. Head down the tech road.

Ok, let's play. Hit ENTER.

Turn 1 -- 1210 AD

FDR adopts Hereditary Rule and Bureaucracy and Serfdom.

Nottingham: Forge > Sistine Chapel (maybe--need to see if I can chop)

:coffee:

Turn 2 -- 1220 AD

Engineering is in. Start Feudalism for the moment.

Cumae: Catapult > Mace
York: Theatre > Forge
Kyoto starts Courthouse

Islam has been founded in Memphis!
Washington adopts Hereditary Rule

I switch Nottingham to Hagia Sophia; will take the same amount of turns, but more likely to get it.

DAMMIT. Mansa traded Engineering to everybody :wallbash:

I go with Paper instead of Feudalism. This does two things: it gives us something (hopefully) to trade, and it allows us to pursue the Education > Liberalism techs if we so choose. Science has to be dropped to 60%.

Turn 3 -- 1230 AD

Heroic Epic completes in Antium. SAVE ANTIUM FOR WEST POINT! Start a Buddhist Missionary and MM a little so it can start growing.

Satsuma: Theatre > Forge

I trade dies to GW for 4gpt
I renegotiate Silver with Hattie to get 5gpt for it (+2gpt)
I renegotiate Cows with Mansa to get 4gpt for it (+1gpt)

Turn 4 -- 1240 AD

Antium: Buddhist Missionary > Buddhist Missionary
Neapolis: Buddhist Missionary > Library
London: Forge > Theatre
Edo: Barracks > Theatre

:coffee:

Turn 5 -- 1250 AD

Rome: National Epic > Buddhist Monastery
Cumae: Mace > Mace

I spread Buddhism to Kyoto.
I spread Buddhism to Edo.

Hrm, Mansa has a Settler/Skirmisher/Skirmisher set walking through our lands. I think he's going to build a city that will quickly become ours (one way or the other).

Turn 6 -- 1260 AD

Paper comes in, start Feudalism (again, just for the moment)
Antium: Buddhist Missionary > Mace
Tokyo: Barracks > Forge

Islam has spread in Nara.

Ok, I trade Literature and Paper to FDR for Feudalism. Trade Paper to Mansa for Compass, 10 gold (his treasury), plus World Map (we can now see all of Hattie's and Mansa's land). Will save Paper to trade to GW next turn for Optics (I hope).

Start Guilds, due in 10 at 50% (our treasury is pretty low right now).

Turn 7 -- 1270 AD

Rome: Buddhist Monastery > Mace
London: Theatre > Confucian Monastery

The Burgeoning Roman Empire now has 5 million souls!

Actually, we can see all of GW's and FDR's lands too, due to the map. With the lands so well known, I bring the exploring Praets home.

GW won't trade Optics or Music to us for Paper. Quite annoying.

Turn 8 -- 1280 AD

Antium: Buddhist Missionary > Hindu Monastery
Cumae: Mace > Harbor

Hinduism has spread in Rome.
Buddhism has spread in Nara (by us)

Turn 9 -- 1290 AD

Hattie wants to trade World Maps. I decline.

Edo: Theatre > Library

Hattie completes the Sistine Chapel.

Buddhism has spread in Osaka (by us). We're now 100% Buddhist.

Turn 10 -- 1300 AD

Rome: Mace > Pike
Antium: Hindu Monastery > Castle
London: Confucian Monastery > Pike
Osaka: Courthouse > Theatre

Nottingham can no longer work on Sistine Chapel. The one turn spent is converted into 72 gold! :)
Science back up to 60%, Guilds due in 4.

Ok, I built some stuff. We're all Buddhists now. The only thing I screwed up was not replacing the Praets with Archers/Longbow. Oh yeah, and I uh forgot to revolt to Representation :blush:

Here's the Save:
View attachment 122707

Umm...not sure who's up. Maquis, maybe?
 
I am up, sorta. I want to give OBJ a chance to grab it if he wants... besides, I am up in all 3 of my SGs right now... so I won't get to this until later...


Roster
player 1: Maquis -- UP/on deck
player 2: eektor --
player 3: bobrath --
player 4: GreyFox --
player 5: ChrTh -- just played
alternate: oldbustedjorn -- UP, if able
 
@ Maquis - At least its the weekend. Would really suck if it happened during the week.

@ ChrTh - Wow, that was a really nice analysis of your turnset.
 
Ok, I got it now. Looks like I might want to revolt to Representation right away, so I don't forget as well :)

I think I'll be staying in builder mode for most of my turns. The earliest we want to get into a war would be once we have Guilds + several Knights at the ready.
 
Forgive me for this, but I am posting from work, and don't have all my notes. No screenshots either, but there was nothing of note I felt needed it anyway.

Turn 0: Looking around, I see that several of Toku's former cities need a border pop, and a few of them are set to build Theater/Library/etc... I can think of a better way...

So I revolt, chosing both Representation (since I would catch hell if I forgot!) and Caste System. Although this does not save a lot of money, it allows a bit of flexability.

Turn 1: Once we come out of revolt, I assign a few Artists in the cities that need a border pop. Good thing too, because Mansa just plopped a city down near Kyoto. I don't want him stealing our real estate!

Turn 2-10: A whole lot of building going on! Here's a few highlights:

I have spread Confusinism through most of our lands. Building a few Knights to add to our stacks, and some Longbows for defense.

Research: Guilds in, and I chose Economics. That came in at the end of my turns as well. With Econ in, I revolted to Mercentilism. A free specialist in each city + 3 beakers from Representation... yummy! No one else had Econ, and Hatty, Mansa, and Roosey all came begging for it. I turned them all down; for one, they would only give crappy techs, and I didn't want to help their economies. We're currently researching Printing Press, for the +1 to towns...

Somewhere in my turnset, one of the Americas built Sistine Chapel, so we got a little change from that. I didn't buy any upgrades, waiting for the next up to decide if/what needs to be upgraded.

I think we could be ready for war soon... Once PP comes in, our economy should get a lot stronger.


Roster
player 1: Maquis -- just played
player 2: eektor -- UP
player 3: bobrath -- on deck
player 4: GreyFox --
player 5: ChrTh --
alternate: oldbustedjorn --

Here's the save:
 
I got it and I'll play tonight.

Are we looking at a war against the Americas in my turnset? Or maybe I'll just build a bunch of knights for the next person. I can't open the saved file at work.
 
I think that war with America (or America II) would be possible during your turns. I just started building knights, and none are ready; but we have some good stacks on our east borders.
 
How are we looking at prosecuting the war? Focus solely on FDR, or just grab the cities he has put between us and GW and going after the latter?
 
I would say take the cities FDR has in between us and Washington and see what we can get for peace. Then declare war on Washington. Of course we need to be careful with FDR since he probably won't be happy with us.

An idea will be to try to get Mansa or Hatty to declare war with us. Hopefully that will slow down their economies.
 
The only thing that worries me with taking on FDR first, he has cities all the way up & down our border. I'm afraid he'll be pillaging the hell out of our eastern cities... But maybe I am still paranoid from our prior experience (think VQ02) :vomit:
 
Its going to be tough to war against the Americas unless we can get one to jump onthe other OR we can get one of them liking us more.

FDR is spread all over the place and will be tough to eliminate without exposing us far too much to George. George is only accesible by going through FDR.


Thought about Nara - gift to a civ we're about to wallop, then declare war and raze it. (or would it automatically revert to us?)

We don't *have* to go to war right away, so lets look at who makes the most sense for us to smack down with the lowest chance of negative 3rd party civ reactions.

FDR is the most behind in technology (but is semi-even with us I suspect).
The Americas UU is a modern tech, so we're safe on that front for a while.
Hatty has a huge tech lead, and has had some room cleared for her when we removed Vicky.
Mansa is hemmed in by Hatty, but they seem pretty buddy/buddy right now. (much like George with FDR).

Unfortunately it looks like we're a single party looking at two couples. Thank RNG those couples haven't aligned with each other!

Any chance of beelining for Defensive Pacts and then egging somone into attacking us?
 
The only tech that I'm worried about is that GW has Gunpowder. Perhaps FDR should be our next target? He has 9 cities, 4 right on our borders (although I only see 8 cities, so I'm not sure where the 9th is). We should be able to grab half his cities within one player's turn, and the march to finish him off should be orderly. With FDR conquered, GW will be surrounded by us.

BTW, who wants to take bets on how long it'll take for Awlil to revolt to us?

The funny thing is, we could win this game via diplo. :crazyeye: ... not that we're going to ... or can ...

EDIT: I'm betting the 9th FDR city is SE of New Orleans, on the Copper Ice.

SECOND EDIT: We have a bunch of builds finishing in 3-4 turns. Maybe convert to Theocracy after those finish and start building troops?
 
then declare war and raze it. (or would it automatically revert to us?)
I'd be interested to know this too. I don't think we would get a chance to raze it... since we have already controlled it in the past...
 
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